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Vanillaware Invades the PSN

TwinBahamutTwinBahamut Staff HealerRPGamer Staff
edited October 2011 in Latest Updates
Let it be known that this news is NOT about Grand Knights History or Dragon's Crown. If that makes you curious, then come take a look.

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  • WheelsWheels RPGamer Staff RPGamer Staff
    edited October 2011
    Since the backtrack about Vanillaware Grand Knights History has been announced for localization AND these two games are showing up on PSN. Coincidence?
  • flamethrowerflamethrower Member Full Members
    edited October 2011
    Sony will tell you who the publisher is for PSN content. So someone check and see who it is!
    My guess is that it's NIS America for GrimGrimoire and Atlus USA for Odin Sphere, the same as the original releases. My guess is someone at VanillaWare got off their butt and made some deals to get these on PSN.

    There were problems in the Odin Sphere US version:
    1) Excessive loading time
    2) Slowdown in combat with lots of sprites onscreen. This is present to some degree in every game, but it's especially bad in this one for a certain battle (only).
    I wonder if they have been fixed in this version.
  • WheelsWheels RPGamer Staff RPGamer Staff
    edited October 2011
    flamethrower said:
    Sony will tell you who the publisher is for PSN content. So someone check and see who it is!
    My guess is that it's NIS America for GrimGrimoire and Atlus USA for Odin Sphere, the same as the original releases. My guess is someone at VanillaWare got off their butt and made some deals to get these on PSN.

    There were problems in the Odin Sphere US version:
    1) Excessive loading time
    2) Slowdown in combat with lots of sprites onscreen. This is present to some degree in every game, but it's especially bad in this one for a certain battle (only).
    I wonder if they have been fixed in this version.
    Load times should be, not sure about slowdowns. My question is, what emulator are these games using (if they aren't true ports) and why can't we get that for general use?
  • TwinBahamutTwinBahamut Staff Healer RPGamer Staff
    edited October 2011
    There are two different theories I've seen on what kind of emulator they might be using.

    1) They are partially rebuilding a "it kinda works" emulator for each game, focusing on games that are more easily emulated because they don't tax certain aspects of the PS2's capabilities (because the PS3 can't emulate the full range of PS2 capabilities).

    2) These are just the first batch of games using some recently completed PS2/PS3 software emulator.

    Not sure which to believe, but the former seems more likely to me.
  • JitawaJitawa Member Full Members
    edited October 2011
    It runs already on my 60gig I suppose. More compelling these days is the job that PC-emulators can do, what with the upscaling and complete removal of sprite-slowdown. Of course, you need a pretty beefy PC to manage such things.
  • LordKaiserLordKaiser Gaming Freedom Full Members
    edited October 2011
    Unless they are giving backward compatibility back I just want remastered editions only. I'll just rip a ISO of my original Odin Sphere and use it on PCSX2 cuz my PS2 has been noisy lately... I miss my old PS3 with backward compatibility...
    Never buy a game published by D3 Publisher that is not WKCII. They cheated on their fans by releasing a game that they didn't support not even for a year and they released a rushed translation.
  • colormonstercolormonster Member Full Members
    edited October 2011
    Darn, I thought they were going to release Princess Crown.
  • DarkRPGMasterDarkRPGMaster A Witness to Destruction Moderators
    edited October 2011
    I want to know if they're going to be playable for the PSP. I seriously doubt it though, as the games are probably too big in size for it. But a man can dream...
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  • WheelsWheels RPGamer Staff RPGamer Staff
    edited October 2011
    DarkRPGMaster said:
    I want to know if they're going to be playable for the PSP. I seriously doubt it though, as the games are probably too big in size for it. But a man can dream...
    That would be a no, but we can always dream they'll run on Vita!
  • MasterChiefMasterChief I didn't learn anything! Full Members
    edited October 2011
    TwinBahamut said:
    There are two different theories I've seen on what kind of emulator they might be using.

    1) They are partially rebuilding a "it kinda works" emulator for each game, focusing on games that are more easily emulated because they don't tax certain aspects of the PS2's capabilities (because the PS3 can't emulate the full range of PS2 capabilities).

    2) These are just the first batch of games using some recently completed PS2/PS3 software emulator.

    Not sure which to believe, but the former seems more likely to me.
    I'm thinking the former as well, as this is basically how Nintendo handles Virtual Console. It'll be... interesting to see how these games run on non-BC PS3s. I imagine a general purpose emulator will be something for the PS4, by which time I imagine emulating the PS2 will be as trivial as PSOne emulation is on the PS3.
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  • WheelsWheels RPGamer Staff RPGamer Staff
    edited October 2011
    MasterChief said:
    I'm thinking the former as well, as this is basically how Nintendo handles Virtual Console. It'll be... interesting to see how these games run on non-BC PS3s. I imagine a general purpose emulator will be something for the PS4, by which time I imagine emulating the PS2 will be as trivial as PSOne emulation is on the PS3.
    PS2 emulation should be as trivial as PS1 emulation on PS3. I'm not buying that its not possible, smells to me like Sony saw a great opportunity to re-sell PS2 games.
  • 7thCircle7thCircle RPGamer Staff RPGamer Staff
    edited October 2011
    I'm with Wheels. And that doesn't happen often because he's insane and I'm not.

    GrimGrimoire will be tempting. When I drew the line and declared myself done filling my PS2 backlog a few years ago, GrimGrimoire was the top game that didn't make the cut. I didn't know anyone who played it to give me their opinion, and reviews failed to make it sound fun even though I loved Odin Sphere. If it's cheap I'll grab it during a slow release period.
    The lesson here is that dreams inevitably lead to hideous implosions.
  • omegabyteomegabyte He's just this guy, you know? RPGamer Staff
    edited October 2011
    Wheels said:
    PS2 emulation should be as trivial as PS1 emulation on PS3. I'm not buying that its not possible, smells to me like Sony saw a great opportunity to re-sell PS2 games.
    It IS trivial because they've already DONE it. Then they took it away. Twice.

    I don't really care though, I have a first-gen PS3 that can run PS2 games natively.

    It might be a way to cash in on re-selling PS2 games, but at least ICO is an extremely rare title and worth reprinting.
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  • Just DougJust Doug Member Full Members
    edited October 2011
    Hmm, this is a bit tempting considering I missed out on them originally (particulary Odin Sphere... GrimGrimoire I'll probably skip)...I wonder how much they'll be.

    As for PS2 games in general: I have a new PS2 I got on the cheap a couple years back in reserve for when my current PS2 dies. I could've gifted it or spent the money on something more necessary...but no, I'm too paranoid about being locked out of my PSX/PS2 library. By the time I got a PS3 they didn't have PS2 compatibility anymore so for now it was the only thing I could think of to do for insurance. I went through several PS2s the first few years the darn things were out, the source of my paranoia.
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  • flamethrowerflamethrower Member Full Members
    edited October 2011
    Wheels said:
    PS2 emulation should be as trivial as PS1 emulation on PS3. I'm not buying that its not possible, smells to me like Sony saw a great opportunity to re-sell PS2 games.
    Microsoft adopted a different strategy. They built an emulator for each game that is downloaded when you put the game in the drive.

    The Sony strategy is that if it can't run using the original ROMs (that you put in the drive), it's not going to run at all. The high compatibility one has the PS2 CPU and GPU on the board. The low compatibility one has the PS2 GPU on the board and does software emulation for the CPU. PS3 isn't powerful enough to do software emulation. Updated PS2 games for PS3 are not using software emulation. I'm certain they are re-compiled to run natively. "PlayStation Classics" that you download off PSN probably use an emulator.

    And rather than (evilly) keeping you from playing games, I'm sure the removal of the PS2 hardware from the board was a cost saving measure, as stated.

    PS: Both of these games work with both the high and low compatibility PS3 models that support backwards compatibility.
  • H.AkeleyH.Akeley Member Full Members
    edited October 2011
    Second hand PS2 consoles are so cheap these days they really nix the need for any emulation (only problem is having to keep an SD TV around). I tried emulating on PC using PCSX2, and though very impressive, results are far from 1:1 perfection.
  • WheelsWheels RPGamer Staff RPGamer Staff
    edited October 2011
    flamethrower said:
    . PS3 isn't powerful enough to do software emulation.
    Unless there's issues related to the fact the PS2 used a 64 bit processor, I'm not sure I buy that. I'd have to dig around and see what kind of computer is need to run the one good PS2 emulator I know of out there at full speed. I didn't realize the PS3 model that used software emulation still had the PS2 GPU in there. I wonder if they could (or would have interest in even) sell a usb addon with the requisite hardware for emulation (though I suspect the transfer speed from usb might not be fast enough).
    H.Akeley said:
    Second hand PS2 consoles are so cheap these days they really nix the need for any emulation (only problem is having to keep an SD TV around).
    Well that depends on your TV and what games you're playing. There are a fair number of games that support widescreen and progressive scan mode, and from personal experience PS2 games looks fine on my HD tv even when not playing fullscreen (I'm using component cables).
  • SpaceDrakeSpaceDrake Capitalism Ho! Full Members
    edited October 2011
    So, back up a minute, these have been confirmed for the US PSN? I thought they were only coming to the Japanese PSN.
  • WheelsWheels RPGamer Staff RPGamer Staff
    edited October 2011
    SpaceDrake said:
    So, back up a minute, these have been confirmed for the US PSN? I thought they were only coming to the Japanese PSN.
    They're up there like, right now actually :)
  • MasterChiefMasterChief I didn't learn anything! Full Members
    edited October 2011
    flamethrower said:
    Microsoft adopted a different strategy. They built an emulator for each game that is downloaded when you put the game in the drive.

    The Sony strategy is that if it can't run using the original ROMs (that you put in the drive), it's not going to run at all. The high compatibility one has the PS2 CPU and GPU on the board. The low compatibility one has the PS2 GPU on the board and does software emulation for the CPU. PS3 isn't powerful enough to do software emulation. Updated PS2 games for PS3 are not using software emulation. I'm certain they are re-compiled to run natively. "PlayStation Classics" that you download off PSN probably use an emulator.

    And rather than (evilly) keeping you from playing games, I'm sure the removal of the PS2 hardware from the board was a cost saving measure, as stated.

    PS: Both of these games work with both the high and low compatibility PS3 models that support backwards compatibility.
    Here we are, a level-headed response in a sea of conspiracy theorists.

    The problem with pure software emulation is that you're running software to trick the game into thinking its on the old system and THEN running the game. It's part of the reason it took so damned long for viable Sega Saturn emulators to come on the scene - That thing was a complicated, unintuitive beast, and at the end of the day, SSF, the best of the lot, requires a beast of a machine to run Saturn games well. I can only imagine the system requirements to run PS2 games as well as on native hardware.
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  • flamethrowerflamethrower Member Full Members
    edited October 2011
    SSF works fine on my machine. It's a performance-tier machine (above mainstream, below enthusiast) built 4 years ago.

    The PS2 emulator doesn't though. I plan to upgrade machines again in 2012; the machine I will get should be able to run it. I was getting around 15 fps at best and that just isn't playable.

    I remember a similar story with SNES emulators back in the day. The school PCs were powerful enough to run them, but my home computer, a 486 66 MHz machine, wasn't powerful enough. It could run the NES emulators just fine though. The problem went away when my parents upgraded our machine to a Pentium II.
  • 7thCircle7thCircle RPGamer Staff RPGamer Staff
    edited October 2011
    Claiming a company stops offering something for free so they can make money charging for it isn't a conspiracy theory. It's neither a conspiracy nor a theory. I don't want to rock anyone's world by listing a recent example, but just last week Bank of America announced plans for a new monthly debit card fee. I think it's because they want more money. There's no difference between that and Sony dropping backwards compatibility from the PS3.
    The lesson here is that dreams inevitably lead to hideous implosions.
  • DravDrav A Serious Man Full Members
    edited October 2011
    flamethrower said:
    Updated PS2 games for PS3 are not using software emulation. I'm certain they are re-compiled to run natively.
    Is this actually a straight-forward process? If so, why are they only just offering this kind of thing now?
  • RebochanRebochan Who needs Rinoa anyway? Full Members
    edited October 2011
    7thCircle said:
    GrimGrimoire will be tempting. When I drew the line and declared myself done filling my PS2 backlog a few years ago, GrimGrimoire was the top game that didn't make the cut. I didn't know anyone who played it to give me their opinion, and reviews failed to make it sound fun even though I loved Odin Sphere.
    ...you raaaaang?!

    So I never finished this game and it's been awhile since I drug it out and played it. The story was interesting enough, and the mechanics of a 2D RTS were actually spot on. But the dungeons...oh god...they're basically the same level over and over and over again. Completely wasted the concept, honestly. I do intend to eventually go back and finish it because yea, the story was pretty entertaining. If you can grab it at a reasonable price, I'd say give it a shot, unless you hate RTS's in which case, well, yea, skip it, it's an RTS.
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  • DarkRPGMasterDarkRPGMaster A Witness to Destruction Moderators
    edited October 2011
    It being RTS was the main reason why I never grabbed GrimGrimoire. I hate those things more than I hate overpriced games at Wal-Mart.
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  • ShadowcatShadowcat Member Full Members
    edited October 2011
    7thCircle said:
    Claiming a company stops offering something for free so they can make money charging for it isn't a conspiracy theory. It's neither a conspiracy nor a theory. I don't want to rock anyone's world by listing a recent example, but just last week Bank of America announced plans for a new monthly debit card fee. I think it's because they want more money. There's no difference between that and Sony dropping backwards compatibility from the PS3.
    Wells Fargo announced something like this a few moths ago and it takes affect in November which is why I'm no longer banking with them. I moved all my money to the credit union down the street and since they are non-profit they will never do this. The reason for this(or so the banks claim) is that there is now a federal cap on how much they can charge vendors(shop guys) for people using debit cards. Personally I think it's just another stupid fee invented to make more money now that most shops and people are now totally hooked on debit cards.

    Now back on topic since this is a discussion for miscellaneous: I may pick this stuff up but I'm still somewhat inclined to get the disks thanks to Sony tying to stick it to their customers...
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  • DarkRPGMasterDarkRPGMaster A Witness to Destruction Moderators
    edited October 2011
    ^You should really see a psychiatrist over that case of butthurt syndrome, it's not good for you.

    Now that I've gotten that short version out of the way, the long version.

    I don't see the point in still holding an entire grudge against Sony for doing some business practices that are legal and smart from a business perspective, nor for some of the problems they've encountered over the last year. Do some of them piss me the hell off? OH HELL YES! But I'm not going to hold it against them entirely (keyword there) for what goes on with them, since they are a business first and foremost. It still makes me uneasy around them and every other console company out there, though (Microsoft for overall releasing a product before it was completely ready and Nintendo for a multitude of things).
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  • ShadowcatShadowcat Member Full Members
    edited October 2011
    DarkRPGMaster said:
    ^You should really see a psychiatrist over that case of butthurt syndrome, it's not good for you.

    Now that I've gotten that short version out of the way, the long version.

    I don't see the point in still holding an entire grudge against Sony for doing some business practices that are legal and smart from a business perspective, nor for some of the problems they've encountered over the last year. Do some of them piss me the hell off? OH HELL YES! But I'm not going to hold it against them entirely (keyword there) for what goes on with them, since they are a business first and foremost. It still makes me uneasy around them and every other console company out there, though (Microsoft for overall releasing a product before it was completely ready and Nintendo for a multitude of things).
    sorry but Sony is out to rip people off and all the security breaches were their own darn fault and part of bad business decisions thank you. Look at the breaches form my perspective/timeline:

    1. The very complicated original "Other OS hack" hits. This is hard to pull off and does almost nothing(except unlock hardware that Sony wants no one to access in Linux/Other OS) and requires quite abit of hardware modification to do correctly without killing the motherboard. Most people do not care even the geeks using "Other Os" because even "As is" the feature is a very big distraction that keeps a ton of would be hackers busy. If ignored possibly nothing would have happened except a few thousand geeks with saduering irons bricking their then $500 consoles.
    2. Sony Removes "Other OS"
    3. This ticks off every geek who was using it without any hacking at all to run their own code and swap back to normal to play PS3 games.
    4. These same Geeks vow to take back what Sony stole from them and many are smarter than Sony's own engineers...
    5. The system gets broken on 3.41 and 3.55
    6. Sony sues the hackers and ticks off the nerd rage crowd even more and creates a PR nightmare
    7. PSN gets taken for a hacker ride and lots of personal info gets stolen which costs Sony with estimates anywhere from $100 million to $1 billion(includes PSN server fixes)
    8. Sony fixes this and updates their TOS twice and it becomes more and more unfriendly twords their customer base. In fact there should be laws against what they are doing with this...oh wait there are but they haven't been updated for the digital age...

    Smarter moves:
    1. patch the Other OS feature(or if it must be removed see #2 or add it also) and ignore the hack[some...and it avoids PR nightmares]
    2. Add a way for people to sell "Homebrew games"/Indy games on PSN for $1-$2 and issue a cheap indy SDK(new distraction) as "homebrew" is often the excuse for hacking a console. This move brought to you by iOS, Xbox360/Live, and Android ^^
    3. Hire the Hackers/Crackers...they are obviously smarter than your own engineers if they found a security hole that your people could not! (Also to beat the bad Hackers you have to think like they do which Sony has proven time and time again that they are incapable of doing so.)
    4. simply ban any hacked consoles from PSN
    5. Actually add a useful feature to make their "carrot and stick" approach work. So far anything they've added after the Other OS removal is pretty useless...
    Bonus: a TOS is not a legal shield but rather something to ban people from online services(AKA: you break this and you're gone..bye see ya!). Also with more open systems you're allowed to keep playing new games without updating(this applies to iOS thank you)

    In short this was all brought to you by several stupid business decisions and the fact that the worlds largest producer of consumer electronics does not understand their customers. Thank you.(and BTW: this is a very important part of selling any product)


    Now that the silly distraction is over back to the very cool guys who are Vannilaware. BTW: I was playing Murasma: The Demon Blade the other day ^^
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  • WheelsWheels RPGamer Staff RPGamer Staff
    edited October 2011
    Shadowcat said:
    sorry but Sony is out to rip people off and all the security breaches were their own darn fault and part of bad business decisions thank you.
    This is true, but I feel like that kind of comment is ignoring the people who actually attacked the network and stole peoples' info.
  • ShadowcatShadowcat Member Full Members
    edited October 2011
    Wheels said:
    This is true, but I feel like that kind of comment is ignoring the people who actually attacked the network and stole peoples' info.
    yes wheels I forgot the "two wrongs don't make a right" deal as the PSN hackers are bad too so it's two sides: 1. Nerd rage and 2. Sony's failure to understand said nerd rage
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