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InXile Kickstarts Wasteland 2

OcelotOcelot is not declawedRPGamer Staff
edited March 2012 in Latest Updates
It's been a long road for Wasteland 2, with the original game coming out when RPGamer's oldest staff member was in braces and gaming on an Apple IIGS. Can Brian Fargo's Kickstarter project meet its goal?
Becky Cunningham, Staff-at-Large
Twitter: BeckyCFreelance
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Comments

  • EmeraldSuzakuEmeraldSuzaku Member Full Members
    edited March 2012
    Oh. Hell. Yes.

    I am so onboard for this.
  • NimNim _ Full Members
    edited March 2012
    I wish them all the best. I'll chip in with as much as I can.
  • freykinfreykin Member Full Members
    edited March 2012
    It's like Christmas came early this year! First Doublefine, and now this!
  • flamethrowerflamethrower Member Full Members
    edited March 2012
    Does it really cost "only" 1 million to develop an RPG like this?
  • freykinfreykin Member Full Members
    edited March 2012
    To pay the people working on it to the completion date of October 2013, along with hardware and software necessary to make such a game, it quite easily can reach costs of that level. Especially if there is going to be any voicework involved.
  • 7thCircle7thCircle RPGamer Staff RPGamer Staff
    edited March 2012
    flamethrower said:
    Does it really cost "only" 1 million to develop an RPG like this?
    $1 million sounds cheap to me. I've been a part of several multi-million dollar IT projects in the last few years, and they all use offshore resources to keep costs that low. It doesn't take many people or much time to hit that number, as large as it looks.

    The design and dev cycle is listed as 12 months. If 10 designers, developers, and testers are working on this (probably a low number) and the average salary is $75,000 (probably very low, depending on the number of onsite resources in Orange County) that's $750,000 just in salaries just for the 12 month crunch time. 6 months of pre-production with a smaller staff would come before that, probably using workers at a higher pay grade. Plus marketing, distribution, writers, hardware maintenance and all those behind-the-scene costs, and this is going to be a pretty small game if it's under $1 mil. Games are expensive to make.

    And don't forget Fargo is famous for two things at Interplay: producing amazing RPGs, and an embarrassing inability to manage a project's budget and scope.
    The lesson here is that dreams inevitably lead to hideous implosions.
  • QuinQuin これはメタです RPGamer Staff
    edited March 2012
    7thCircle said:
    $1 million sounds cheap to me. I've been a part of several multi-million dollar IT projects in the last few years, and they all use offshore resources to keep costs down. It doesn't take many people or much time to hit that number, as large as it looks.

    The design and dev cycle is listed as 12 months. If 10 designers, developers, and testers are working on this (probably a low number) and the average salary is $75,000 (probably very low, depending on the number of onsite resources in Orange County) that's $750,000 just in salaries just for the 12 month crunch time. 6 months of pre-production with a smaller staff would come before that, probably using workers at a higher pay grade. Plus marketing, distribution, writers, hardware maintenance and all those behind-the-scene costs, and this is going to be a pretty small game if it's under $1 mil. Games are expensive to make.
    The way I usually estimate is to multiply everyone's yearly salaries by two, add those all together and multiply by the number of years allocated for development.

    So...((750000*2)*1.5) = $2,250,000
    [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
    befriend (v.): to use mecha-class beam weaponry to inflict grievous bodily harm on a target in the process of proving the validity of your belief system.
  • EmeraldSuzakuEmeraldSuzaku Member Full Members
    edited March 2012
    I wouldn't be surprised if they managed over 3 million raised. I'm thinking they're going to pass Double Fine easily, actually.
  • DravDrav A Serious Man Full Members
    edited March 2012
    I doubt it. Tim Schafer is still a (relatively) big name in the industry, where as Fargo hasn't produced anything of note in 10 years. Plus, let's face it, how many people besides Fallout fans know anything about Wasteland beyond "that game Fallout was based on"? They'll make the million easily, but I don't see it going much further than that.
  • OcelotOcelot is not declawed RPGamer Staff
    edited March 2012
    I have a suspicion that this particular Kickstarter is up for the purpose of providing partial funding for Wasteland 2. Fargo has already gotten the team back together and from the description it sounds like the main story is already written. He may have possible funders on board who have said, "OK, we're behind you if you guys can prove there's a demand for this game," or he just needed another mill and figured the Double Fine folks were onto a good thing. I think it's smart not to ask for over a million, at least... looks like they shouldn't have trouble meeting their goal, while a higher goal might have caused people to balk at donating.

    Hopefully they can get this sucker out on time and within budget.
    Becky Cunningham, Staff-at-Large
    Twitter: BeckyCFreelance
  • VampiricDragonVampiricDragon Banned Banned Users
    edited March 2012
    never played the first game, i dont really like this method of raising money
  • flamethrowerflamethrower Member Full Members
    edited March 2012
    Ocelot said:
    I have a suspicion that this particular Kickstarter is up for the purpose of providing partial funding for Wasteland 2. Fargo has already gotten the team back together and from the description it sounds like the main story is already written. He may have possible funders on board who have said, "OK, we're behind you if you guys can prove there's a demand for this game," or he just needed another mill and figured the Double Fine folks were onto a good thing.
    It sounds a bit like the reason publishers want you to preorder their games. $1 million is only 20,000 copies though - they'll need to sell more than that to make up the rest of the development cost. However, the risk is less for the private backers (and fittingly, the reward is also less - they lose the revenue from the 20,000 presales).
  • DravDrav A Serious Man Full Members
    edited March 2012
    There was an interview on NMA allowed where he mentioned that he and Jason D Anderson tried to get it funded a couple of years ago but no one wanted to touch it because they thought they'd have to compete with Bioware and weren't willing to put up the kind of money it would actually take to do that. I doubt anything they came up with then will end up being used, since they were probably targeting a whole different kind of RPG at the time, and 5 months of pre-production should be long enough to come up with a fresh concept more suitable for a top-down turn-based RPG anyway.
  • Confessor RahlConfessor Rahl Member Full Members
    edited March 2012
    VampiricDragon said:
    never played the first game, i dont really like this method of raising money
    Really? Why not? What method of raising money do you like? Fans put down some cash, the game gets made, they get some schwag. What could there possibly be not to like?
    [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]

    www.powerlinemag.com

    "I remember back when FF9 was coming out. People were rejoicing because it was actually a fantasy game and not a sci-fi game like 7 and 8. It's especially hilarious given modern context, with everyone wanking themselves to dehydration at the thought of an FF7 remake." - Masterchief
  • MacstormMacstorm Ysy St. Administrators
    edited March 2012
    Confessor Rahl said:
    Really? Why not? What method of raising money do you like? Fans put down some cash, the game gets made, they get some schwag. What could there possibly be not to like?
    There's also the get money from a publisher and have a forced online pass method. And the attempt to get money and get shot down so your game doesn't get made method. I like both of those.
    "The universe is already mad. Anything else would be redundant."
    Twitter @FinalMacstorm
  • 7thCircle7thCircle RPGamer Staff RPGamer Staff
    edited March 2012
    Confessor Rahl said:
    Really? Why not? What method of raising money do you like? Fans put down some cash, the game gets made, they get some schwag. What could there possibly be not to like?
    What rubs me the wrong way is that this comes across more like investing for dummies than donating to a charity. If the game sells a million copies, it makes InXile rich and gives me no returns on that gain. It puts InXile in a everything to gain, nothing to lose scenario that doesn't feel right. If I make myself think of it as a donation, like to a non-profit charity, then I would expect all the extra dough to continue funding the charity in a non-profit manner -- helping orphans, healing the sick, or whatever charity you like. I can't make myself see KickStarter this way because all the extra dough goes toward lining InXile's pockets.

    I get it; I get why KickStarter is useful and how bypassing publishers is useful for game developers, but for me to feel comfortable about this it needs to feel more like an investment and less like giving money to a for-profit corporation that can't figure out how to raise cash on its own.

    Why not use micro-transactions to fund a game like a normal investment? Instead of finding 1 rich person or publisher to invest $1 mil and get a return, find 10,000 people to invest $100 and get a return if it succeeds. That's very doable. KickStarter feels like a scam compared to this. If I bought 1 share of Apple at $100, now I have $500. If I give InXile $100 to make a game that generates $3 million of revenue, I get a CE that would have cost $100 anyway. My return is nothing.

    I'm not ranting and I'm cool with KickStarter existing, but this is what makes me feel squeamish about the situation. I think it works for video games because gamers are too poor or too stupid to know how investing is supposed to operate.
    The lesson here is that dreams inevitably lead to hideous implosions.
  • VampiricDragonVampiricDragon Banned Banned Users
    edited March 2012
    7thCircle said:
    What rubs me the wrong way is that this comes across more like investing for dummies than donating to a charity. If the game sells a million copies, it makes InXile rich and gives me no returns on that gain. It puts InXile in a everything to gain, nothing to lose scenario that doesn't feel right. If I make myself think of it as a donation, like to a non-profit charity, then I would expect all the extra dough to continue funding the charity in a non-profit manner -- helping orphans, healing the sick, or whatever charity you like. I can't make myself see KickStarter this way because all the extra dough goes toward lining InXile's pockets.

    I get it; I get why KickStarter is useful and how bypassing publishers is useful for game developers, but for me to feel comfortable about this it needs to feel more like an investment and less like giving money to a for-profit corporation that can't figure out how to raise cash on its own.

    Why not use micro-transactions to fund a game like a normal investment? Instead of finding 1 rich person or publisher to invest $1 mil and get a return, find 10,000 people to invest $100 and get a return if it succeeds. That's very doable. KickStarter feels like a scam compared to this. If I bought 1 share of Apple at $100, now I have $500. If I give InXile $100 to make a game that generates $3 million of revenue, I get a CE that would have cost $100 anyway. My return is nothing.

    I'm not ranting and I'm cool with KickStarter existing, but this is what makes me feel squeamish about the situation. I think it works for video games because gamers are too poor or too stupid to know how investing is supposed to operate.
    you articulated what I was feeling
  • OcelotOcelot is not declawed RPGamer Staff
    edited March 2012
    I think if it more as a very early pre-order, but I would be one of the low-denomination Kickstarters who would just get a digital copy of the game. I say "I would" because Kickstarter uses Amazon Money, which doesn't like my Canadabucks. I could bend over backwards to get a pre-paid US credit card for the amount I want to donate every time, but I really can't be arsed.

    PS: Kickstarter, do us a solid and start supporting Paypal or something, eh?
    Becky Cunningham, Staff-at-Large
    Twitter: BeckyCFreelance
  • shoptrollshoptroll Have towel will travel Full Members
    edited March 2012
    Ocelot said:
    I think if it more as a very early pre-order, but I would be one of the low-denomination Kickstarters who would just get a digital copy of the game.
    This is my attitude as well and I don't think Kickstarter has ever suggested it is anything other than a vehicle for pre-orders. It solely exists for customers to say "Hey, I like this idea, go make me one" and if enough people chip in they get their thneed. The other term I like to bandy about is "patronware" as in "I'm a patron of the arts". Reward tiers for financial contributions, with no return on the investment, is a time-tested method employed by many theater companies (and probably museums and similar organizations).

    I really really think most people who use Kickstarter really don't care about profiting from their money. And even if everyone got some slice of the profit... that'd be what... a fraction of a fraction of a cent per unit sold?
    PS: Kickstarter, do us a solid and start supporting Paypal or something, eh?
    While it's more convenient, Paypal has its own set of special baggage.
    So long & thanks for all the fish!
  • OcelotOcelot is not declawed RPGamer Staff
    edited March 2012
    I know, but it's one of the few options we have for easily spending non-US currency online.

    Unless, of course, companies actually accept non-US credit cards.
    Becky Cunningham, Staff-at-Large
    Twitter: BeckyCFreelance
  • PawsPaws BEARSONA RPGamer Staff
    edited March 2012
    My CAD CC works fine via Amazon, fwiw. Also, in this case it's not an issue of Kickstarter wanting to support PP -- they do. PP refuses to support them. And a lot of other sites thanks to idiot policies even PP doesn't understand, so in this case Paypal can do a solid and stop being dips. I'd prefer that, having worked with them profesionally in the past (and present); plenty of companies work with PP because they have to, not because they want to.

    I tossed 15$ to the Double Fine because that's what I would have paid for the game anyways. I admittedly paid extra to the CSTW kickstarter, but I also feel I COMPLETELY got my money's worth since the item I received rocks. I'm not supporting this one because I'm disinterested in the game. To me it's neither a charitable gift nor an investment, but a purchase -- and the only question I need to ask is "would I spend this much on the game at launch?"
  • OcelotOcelot is not declawed RPGamer Staff
    edited March 2012
    Well, I wish I knew why Amazon money doesn't support my Canadian credit card. Amazon takes it for regular purchases. :-p
    Becky Cunningham, Staff-at-Large
    Twitter: BeckyCFreelance
  • PawsPaws BEARSONA RPGamer Staff
    edited March 2012
    It may depend on your bank. My Scotia card is taken in placed my TD/CT is declined.
  • shoptrollshoptroll Have towel will travel Full Members
    edited March 2012
    Ocelot said:
    Well, I wish I knew why Amazon money doesn't support my Canadian credit card. Amazon takes it for regular purchases. :-p
    Email Amazon/Kickstarter? The Kickstarter FAQ says they support International users.
    So long & thanks for all the fish!
  • TG BarighmTG Barighm Member Full Members
    edited March 2012
    Investment or not, it's a new RPG, not some generic FPS, and that's worthy of the pocket change I normally save for Tim Hortons coffee.

    And hey, they're already at $750k. Nice.
  • OcelotOcelot is not declawed RPGamer Staff
    edited March 2012
    shoptroll said:
    Email Amazon/Kickstarter? The Kickstarter FAQ says they support International users.
    I'll do that next time I really get a hankering to Kickstart something. (Wasteland is not my bag of tea. I grew up in a place that looks like where Brian Fargo was walking at the beginning of the video, and I haaaated it.)
    Becky Cunningham, Staff-at-Large
    Twitter: BeckyCFreelance
  • Fowl SorcerousFowl Sorcerous Dread News Editor RPGamer Staff
    edited March 2012
    7thCircle said:
    I get it; I get why KickStarter is useful and how bypassing publishers is useful for game developers, but for me to feel comfortable about this it needs to feel more like an investment and less like giving money to a for-profit corporation that can't figure out how to raise cash on its own.

    Why not use micro-transactions to fund a game like a normal investment? Instead of finding 1 rich person or publisher to invest $1 mil and get a return, find 10,000 people to invest $100 and get a return if it succeeds. That's very doable. KickStarter feels like a scam compared to this. If I bought 1 share of Apple at $100, now I have $500. If I give InXile $100 to make a game that generates $3 million of revenue, I get a CE that would have cost $100 anyway. My return is nothing.

    I'm not ranting and I'm cool with KickStarter existing, but this is what makes me feel squeamish about the situation. I think it works for video games because gamers are too poor or too stupid to know how investing is supposed to operate.
    most of the money on kickstarter for gaming gets made on the basic pre-order reward level and the 1 or 2 ce levels above that. it basically operates as a glorified pre-order storefront, I'm not gonna begrudge the loyal types who A and B the C of D for the things they believe in, but not for me. I don't think anyone is pretending this is an investment, beyond an emotional one. Crowdfunding has exploded in the pnp sphere and there some excellent projects that would not have gotten the releases they did without people fronting the cash in advance to make that happen.

    on a completely different rant, crowdfunding is a great place for small, less mainstream projects but it's never going to supplant the publisher structure.
  • OcelotOcelot is not declawed RPGamer Staff
    edited March 2012
    Absolutely, but I think it's a neat idea for niche projects that the million-selling-obsessed publishers won't fund.
    Becky Cunningham, Staff-at-Large
    Twitter: BeckyCFreelance
  • EmeraldSuzakuEmeraldSuzaku Member Full Members
    edited March 2012
    In the case of Wasteland 2 and Double Fine Adventure, I look at is as a pre-order with bonuses. The developers are professionals who I trust to actually deliver the promised product--a product that may not be made any other way. I'm not generally in the habit of tossing money at such things, but these are two types of projects that I've personally been wanting for a long while.
  • MacstormMacstorm Ysy St. Administrators
    edited March 2012
    Well, they met their goal.
    "The universe is already mad. Anything else would be redundant."
    Twitter @FinalMacstorm
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