If this is your first visit, be sure to check out the Forum Rules. You may have to register before you can post: click the register link above to proceed. To start viewing messages, select the forum that you want to visit from the selection below.
Welcome to RPGamer's new forums running under Vanilla Forums! If you're run into any odd or strange issues after our software migration please see this thread for details

RPGamer's Battle System Battle Royale - General Discussion

MacstormMacstorm Ysy St.Administrators
edited May 2014 in Battle Royale!
Greetings again.

The Battle System Battle Royale will be starting soon, but before it does I wanted to detail exactly how things are going to work. I took nominations from staff and readers alike and have tallied them up into a Top 32 list. I've finished seeding the tournament and when it starts, we all get to take part. For each match, two games will be pitted against each other with us comparing their battle systems only. During these matches an even number of staff members (4 early on, more in later matches) will vote on which game has the better battle system and why. At the same time, we will be running a poll on the front page of the site with the same two games up and the winner will count as the readers' vote. This way there will be five votes for each pairing with the winner moving on.

Update: The Bracket and Match Schedule for Round One are live. http://www.rpgamer.com/news/Q2-2014/041714a.html
"The universe is already mad. Anything else would be redundant."
Twitter @FinalMacstorm
«134

Comments

  • JCServantJCServant Certified Polygameist RPGamer Staff
    edited April 2014
    Let's DOOOOO this!!!
  • RockkoRockko Member Full Members
    edited April 2014
    This should be fun.
  • redwing42redwing42 Classic Console Junkie Full Members
    edited April 2014
    I didn't get around to submitting a pre-ranking list, but I think this will be an interesting exercise.
  • MacstormMacstorm Ysy St. Administrators
    edited April 2014
    Round 1 is going to be starting soon, but before it does here are our Top 32 in unranked order. They have since been seeded, and that will be revealed when we start.

    Top 32
    Baldur's Gate II
    Bravely Default
    Breath of Fire: Dragon Quarter
    Chrono Trigger
    Dark Souls
    Diablo II
    Disgaea 4: A Promise Unforgotten
    Fallout 3
    Final Fantasy Tactics
    Final Fantasy VI
    Final Fantasy X
    Final Fantasy X-2
    Final Fantasy XII
    Final Fantasy XIII
    Fire Emblem: Awakening
    Grandia II
    Kingdoms of Amalur: Reckoning
    Persona 4 Golden
    Pokemon X/Y
    Radiant Historia
    Resonance of Fate
    Shin Megami Tensei: Devil Survivor
    Shining Force III
    Tactics Ogre: Let Us Cling Together
    Tales of Graces f
    The Legend of Zelda: Ocarina of Time
    The World Ends With You
    Valkyria Chronicles
    Valkyrie Profile
    Xenoblade Chronicles
    Xenogears
    Ys Seven

    Staff Battlers
    7thCircle (Glenn)
    StrawBerryEggs (Cassandra)
    CofLSilk (Ken)
    JC Servant (Phil)
    JMustang1968 (Johnathan)
    JuMeSyn (Mike M)
    Keldarus (Paul)
    Macstorm (Mac)
    Nyx (Sam)
    Ocelot (Becky)
    Robomega (Adriaan)
    severinmira (Alex)
    InstaTrent (Trent)
    TwinBahamut (Nathan)
    Wheels (Mike A)
    "The universe is already mad. Anything else would be redundant."
    Twitter @FinalMacstorm
  • Zeboyd GamesZeboyd Games Member Full Members
    edited April 2014
    Disappointed that some of these entries are obviously based on the game's overall quality & popularity and not the battle system itself. Specifically Final Fantasy 6 (generic ATB battle system), Ocarina of Time (groundbreaking but literally every 3D Zelda game released after it has better combat), Grandia 2 (though 2 is the better game overall, 3's saving grace is the better battle system) and Ys 7 (Ys: Memories of Celceta has the same battle system but with some fixes & better balance).
    Check out our new XBox 360 Indie RPG, Cthulhu Saves the World, at http://zeboyd.com or follow us on twitter (username: werezompire) for the latest news.
  • MacstormMacstorm Ysy St. Administrators
    edited April 2014
    Very true, which was to be expected. This is why for the tourney itself we'll be holding staff to the fire to explain WHY they are picking the game they want to move on. And also why we are not just using the poll for the tournament like GameFAQs does.
    "The universe is already mad. Anything else would be redundant."
    Twitter @FinalMacstorm
  • PawsPaws Purr RPGamer Staff
    edited April 2014
    I like the fact we have so many Mikes they need initials and nicknames.
  • WheelsWheels RPGamer Staff RPGamer Staff
    edited April 2014
    It's a regular old Michael Royal
  • smacdsmacd Full Members
    edited April 2014
    That might be one of the worst lists I've ever seen. 6 Final Fantasies and not a single Dragon Quest? Fallout 3 over an Elder Scrolls game? *yawn*
  • OcelotOcelot is not declawed RPGamer Staff
    edited April 2014
    I do think in most cases it's a matter of exposure. In my case (Grandia 2 over 3), I simply never played 3, so I nominated 2. I did nominate Memories of Celceta, but again, it hasn't been out for long, so a lot of people probably haven't gotten to it yet.

    In terms of FF VI, which I've also never played (and yes, the staff regularly rakes me over the coals for it), we needed a representative of the baseline ATB battle system. I'm not super-fond of ATB, but I know a lot of people are, and in my mind one baseline ATB game is as good as another for that purpose. ;)

    As for Zelda, I have no idea. I personally nominated Skyward Sword (I generally tried to keep my noms to one per series) because I loved its motion control battle system and I don't care what some people say. :D

    Looking forward to arguing with y'all! C'mon Mac, put me up against the sacred cows of RTWP and ATB, you know you want to. ::evil grin:: (Edit: Oh, wait, I just saw the seeds and you diiiid.)
    Becky Cunningham, Staff-at-Large
    Twitter: BeckyCFreelance
  • MacstormMacstorm Ysy St. Administrators
    edited April 2014
    smacd said:
    That might be one of the worst lists I've ever seen. 6 Final Fantasies and not a single Dragon Quest? Fallout 3 over an Elder Scrolls game? *yawn*
    I'm with you on no DQ. I had three on my nomination list (Joker 2, IX, and Rocket Slime), but alas! But yeah, I'll take Fallout 3 over any ES game as far as battle systems go, but neither series would actually be on my list. :)
    "The universe is already mad. Anything else would be redundant."
    Twitter @FinalMacstorm
  • smacdsmacd Full Members
    edited April 2014
    Macstorm said:
    I'm with you on no DQ. I had three on my nomination list (Joker 2, IX, and Rocket Slime), but alas! But yeah, I'll take Fallout 3 over any ES game as far as battle systems go, but neither series would actually be on my list. :)
    Those three DQs are definitely good ones.

    I guess on going back over the list, there are a couple good games on the list. Dark Souls felt really organic. Xenoblade wasn't bad. I like a few aspects of a few other games, but most of them fail as a whole. Granted, my favorite battle systems include "mindlessly press A until its over because battles generally get in the way of the story". The battle systems have to be really engrossing to get me interested. All the needlessly complex ones that aren't fun, might as well not have bothered. There are a few on that list that I think tried some interesting things but really failed as a whole. Still, 6 Final Fantasies....
  • OcelotOcelot is not declawed RPGamer Staff
    edited April 2014
    RPGamer began its history as a Square Enix fan site. Many of its staffers have long and deep histories as fans of Final Fantasy in particular, and same with many of the long-time readers. I'm one of the few who doesn't, in fact, so this isn't a defensive post as much as an explanation. Like it or not, FF is going to be a big part of anything the site does.
    Becky Cunningham, Staff-at-Large
    Twitter: BeckyCFreelance
  • MacstormMacstorm Ysy St. Administrators
    edited April 2014
    Indeed. And in many cases, FFs are all different. Unlike something like Demon's Souls vs. Dark Souls or DQIV vs. DQV where it's more or less the same system.
    "The universe is already mad. Anything else would be redundant."
    Twitter @FinalMacstorm
  • NyxNyx Staff Girly Girl RPGamer Staff
    edited April 2014
    Ocelot said:
    RPGamer began its history as a Square Enix fan site. Many of its staffers have long and deep histories as fans of Final Fantasy in particular, and same with many of the long-time readers. I'm one of the few who doesn't, in fact, so this isn't a defensive post as much as an explanation. Like it or not, FF is going to be a big part of anything the site does.
    I am in the same boat as you, but I admit to generally disliking FF on a whole (unless you say, Tactics or FF6) the series has done nothing to entice me over the years. But I understand people's deep love for the series, I'm just the crank who doesn't see the glory. :)

    Yay for crankiness and battle systems! Also, I like DQ and it's battle systems. I totes forgot about Rocket Slime which I completed adored. I make sad faces now.
  • ChickenGodChickenGod Overdosing Heavenly Bliss Moderators
    edited April 2014
    Yeah, I agree with Zeboyd on all counts except Ys 7. Seven has better bosses, dungeon crawling, and music in my opinion, but I definitely think Celceta has the superior character selection and skills. Either one would have worked well, just like Persona 3 or Persona 4.

    I'm also a little disappointed to see Resonance of Fate and Shining Force 3 on there. Shining Force 3, while a fun and charming game, certainly doesn't have the depth that a Wild Arms XF or other tactical games such as Super Robot Taisen do. Resonance of Fate's battle system was needlessly complex and ultimately boiled down to using a few simple patterns over and over again (scratch off armor then shoot) and one character was almost always delegated as a meat shield. Theres more to it than just that of course, but the battles are probably some of my least favorite in RPG history, right up there with Xenosaga 2, so I'm extremely biased against it.

    Pokemon X and Y is a curious case as well. Personally I feel that if it is taken as purely a single player experience, then there isn't much challenge to be had and the true art of the battle system becomes lost against a very poor AI that does not ask much of the player. The multiplayer aspect however is where you can see tons of various strategies and mind games to be had against real human opponents. I'm curious to see how the staff judges this one, for sure.
    "Looks like Teach just got tenure!" - Teach
  • Zeboyd GamesZeboyd Games Member Full Members
    edited April 2014
    Yeah, Shining Force 3 is an odd choice compared to all the other SRPGs that could have been mentioned instead.

    And I'm glad to hear that I'm not the only one who thought that Resonance of Fate was a huge mess, though I can see why some people like it. It's very difficult just to figure out what on earth the battle system wants you to do, but once you figure it out, it becomes boring & tedious since you don't really need to mix up your strategy much over the course of the entire game.
    Check out our new XBox 360 Indie RPG, Cthulhu Saves the World, at http://zeboyd.com or follow us on twitter (username: werezompire) for the latest news.
  • TG BarighmTG Barighm Member Full Members
    edited April 2014
    Oh, Resonance of Fate is a weird animal all right, but as far as battle systems go, it's more unique than many of the systems on that list. Hate it all you want, but there is nothing quite like it, and there is always the possibility someone can do it better. Good idea, bad execution so to speak, so it's worth giving the battle system praise.

    You know, a PROGRESSION based contest might have been more interesting. RoF wasn't so hot, but finding ways to slap a ridiculous number of parts onto the guns was great fun. I'd LOVE to see more of that in other games. Heck, Borderlands would do well with that sort of thing. It's amazing how much little bits and parts you may not even notice affect the gun's final stats.
  • PawsPaws Purr RPGamer Staff
    edited April 2014
    I actually like the fact that some of these choices seem "wrong" (airquote wrong) -- the battle will be more interesting when people need to really back up their choice with good prose.
  • WheelsWheels RPGamer Staff RPGamer Staff
    edited April 2014
    ChickenGod said:
    Y
    I'm also a little disappointed to see Resonance of Fate and Shining Force 3 on there. Shining Force 3, while a fun and charming game, certainly doesn't have the depth that a Wild Arms XF or other tactical games such as Super Robot Taisen do. Resonance of Fate's battle system was needlessly complex and ultimately boiled down to using a few simple patterns over and over again (scratch off armor then shoot) and one character was almost always delegated as a meat shield. Theres more to it than just that of course, but the battles are probably some of my least favorite in RPG history, right up there with Xenosaga 2, so I'm extremely biased against it.
    To be fair, this is not the battle system-depth battle royal. While the examples you give are systems that certainly have more depth, that doesn't necessarily make them better or more fun.

    I also think you're unfairly stripping out the complexity of Resonance of Fate. I can make any RPG sound pretty simple if I say "all you have to do is kill the enemies". There's a lot to that battle system involving positioning, when to use special bullets, properly upgrading weapons, using grenades effectively, dealing with enemies with certain resistances etc. It's pretty simple early on, but gets more complex the farther you get into. Plus there's a chapter where instead of fighting enemies you toss presents to children. I mean COME ON.
  • CofLSilkCofLSilk RPGamer Staff RPGamer Staff
    edited April 2014
    Here's to hoping Resonance of Fate makes it to the 2nd round and that I get assigned to it. A lot of these games had interesting mechanics with mostly generic battle systems. RoF's was a lot more involved than just repeating actions and was surprisingly fun once you learned how the system worked.
  • smacdsmacd Full Members
    edited April 2014
    I understand that many RPGamers have played Final Fantasy games, as it is the most well known JRPG series. I just think its very over-represented as a series at nearly 20% of the entries, despite the fact that it does change up the battle system a lot. The battle would be a lot more interesting if a series could only be represented once- get a little more actual variety in there.

    With regard to the RoF discussion, I have to echo CG. As soon as you figure out the standard battle steps, it becomes rote and boring. Sure, you can add in other complexities like the different bullets and grenades and stuff, but in the end you spend something like 10 chapters doing the same battles over and over in the same manner and its boring. But there isn't any reason not to keep doing what works.
  • lolwhoopslolwhoops Member HalifaxRPGamer Staff
    edited April 2014
    I personally think FF10 is the best battle system of the series, so I'm fine if you cut all the other FF games. I do think there's a little too much ATB repping here, since I figured 10-2 would be the pinnacle of it. I guess it's weird for me to consider FF12 ATB, but it really is and I can imagine that FF13 has a great battle system if I ignore all the AI problems.
    lolwhoops: a Gamer's Blog
    ^^is my blog! Updates whenever I feel like it! :D which happens a lot more often now!
    this is my twitter! come twit with me
  • WheelsWheels RPGamer Staff RPGamer Staff
    edited April 2014
    smacd said:
    I understand that many RPGamers have played Final Fantasy games, as it is the most well known JRPG series. I just think its very over-represented as a series at nearly 20% of the entries, despite the fact that it does change up the battle system a lot. The battle would be a lot more interesting if a series could only be represented once- get a little more actual variety in there.
    I don't really agree. Final Fantasy has a wide variety of quality battle systems, and a wide variety of OPINIONS on those battle systems so it'd be impossible to decide on a smaller set of them to include.
  • TG BarighmTG Barighm Member Full Members
    edited April 2014
    There's a lot to that battle system involving positioning, when to use special bullets, properly upgrading weapons, using grenades effectively, dealing with enemies with certain resistances etc. It's pretty simple early on, but gets more complex the farther you get into.

    RoF's was a lot more involved than just repeating actions and was surprisingly fun once you learned how the system worked.
    Well, I wish I played the same game you two did, because it sounds like fun. All I remember is abusing the same scant few tactics over and over again that literally killed everything in just a few rounds. Even the guys in the optional dungeon (admittedly just the first few stages, but the battles didn't feel any different aside from enemies having more HP so I lost interest) were no match for the SMG trick.
  • Strawberry EggsStrawberry Eggs The Bemused Administrators
    edited April 2014
    ChickenGod said:
    Pokemon X and Y is a curious case as well. Personally I feel that if it is taken as purely a single player experience, then there isn't much challenge to be had and the true art of the battle system becomes lost against a very poor AI that does not ask much of the player. The multiplayer aspect however is where you can see tons of various strategies and mind games to be had against real human opponents. I'm curious to see how the staff judges this one, for sure.
    While I mostly agree with, the Battle Maison (and the many "Battle Towers" of previous games) is challenging enough that it requires much of the same knowledge of using the battle system and the systems in place to raise Pokemon to get anywhere in it.
    Reincarnation, realization
  • ironmageironmage chaotic neutral observer SaskatoonFull Members
    edited April 2014
    I'm a little disappointed that SMT: Nocturne didn't make the cut, but I guess Persona 4 will suffice as a representative of the press-turn family. It's a moot point, anyway; Valkyria Chronicles is destined to win. ^_^

    There are several games on the list that I haven't played, though, so I'm more interested in the discussion than in who the eventual winners are. This sort of feature is a good way to find new entries for the backlog.
    Only the livin' have the privilege of sayin' they'll fight ta the last breath.
    And words like conviction and resolve don't mean much to a dead man...
    --Raven (Tales of Vesperia)
  • MacstormMacstorm Ysy St. Administrators
    edited April 2014
    Wheels said:
    I don't really agree. Final Fantasy has a wide variety of quality battle systems, and a wide variety of OPINIONS on those battle systems so it'd be impossible to decide on a smaller set of them to include.
    The votes from staff and readers did back that up. FF isn't as much a series as it is a collection of games. At least all of the FFs in this Royale are pretty different from one another.

    And I agree that it's nice to have picks that aren't popular considering this is not trying to find the "best battle system". It's like the NCAA tourney, as there are always those that don't seem to deserve to be there and they often get ousted pretty quickly. This is just going to show us which shine the brightest. Should be fun. Loving this debate already.
    "The universe is already mad. Anything else would be redundant."
    Twitter @FinalMacstorm
  • omegabyteomegabyte He's just this guy, you know? RPGamer Staff
    edited April 2014
    Macstorm said:
    The votes from staff and readers did back that up. FF isn't as much a series as it is a collection of games. At least all of the FFs in this Royale are pretty different from one another.

    And I agree that it's nice to have picks that aren't popular considering this is not trying to find the "best battle system". It's like the NCAA tourney, as there are always those that don't seem to deserve to be there and they often get ousted pretty quickly. This is just going to show us which shine the brightest. Should be fun. Loving this debate already.
    Yea, each FF game is radically different from the others in this poll. There's FF6, which is basically an ATB general surrogate (though it also shares that spot with Chrono Trigger - I don't think it stands a chance against that one), but also FFX-2, which is ATB on speed with a crazy awesome shifting job system. FFX is a radically different turn-based system that features turn-order manipulation, on-the-fly party changes, and impressively well-defined character roles. FF Tactics is, well, a tactical RPG. Completely different from any other FF. FFXII features the only combat system devoid of a separate battle screen as well as some of the most customizable AI in any game ever. And FFXIII is fast-paced tactical decision-making on a small but broad scale. I don't really think it's fair to cut any of them out of the running when they're all so different from one another and each still better than so many other games out there. Personally, when I was coming up with my own list of nominees, 4 out of 6 of these games crossed my mind.
    "It's okay to fail as long as you learn that you failed!" - Neptune, Hyperdimension Neptunia Victory
    Follow me on Twitter
    Read my serialized, comedy-fantasy web novel, The Almanac of All Things - http://www.thealmanac.ca - Read All of Part One Now!
  • Rya_ReisenderRya_Reisender Solipsist Snowflake Full Members
    edited April 2014
    Wheels said:
    To be fair, this is not the battle system-depth battle royal. While the examples you give are systems that certainly have more depth, that doesn't necessarily make them better or more fun.
    Yeah exactly. I personally think Shining Force has the best battle system out of all SRPGs and that's because it's NOT so complex. It's super smooth, characters are choosen automatically, the menu is super easy and quick to handle and very intuitive by auto-selecting the most likely option. You don't even have to "End Turn" and stuff. Other SRPGs are more complex and that's what usually makes them a lot less fun.
    (Though I could probably dish out a few SRPGs that are also really good and nobody ever heard about like Crystal Warriors / Royal Stone. Vandal Hearts 1 was also quite nice.)


    Resonance of Fate is a tough one for me. On one hand it's really original and a great idea, on the other hand it just didn't work out for me. Having to build weapon was tedious and annoying, the combat was fun but there are soooooo many battles in that game that after the 200th battle it also got boring. So my impression after quitting the game was "Ewww" while my initial impression was "Wow, great idea".


    Other than that I mostly agree with Zeboyd, the list really looks like more popular titles have been chosen rather than less popular titles with good battle systems.
    But I think that also fits to this community in general because the community really tends to prefer the more popular games. It's reflected by what is mostly discussed here and also the review scores, so it's not that big of a surprise. And as explained by a staff member it's mostly because the community is based on FF fans - so that makes sense.
Sign In or Register to comment.