If this is your first visit, be sure to check out the Forum Rules. You may have to register before you can post: click the register link above to proceed. To start viewing messages, select the forum that you want to visit from the selection below.
Welcome to RPGamer's new forums running under Vanilla Forums! If you're run into any odd or strange issues after our software migration please see this thread for details

Round 2, Match 18: Ys Seven (2) vs Dark Souls - Winner (3)

JuMeSynJuMeSyn Code: KirinAdministrators
edited June 2014 in Battle Royale!
Match 18: Which battle system do you prefer?
Ys Seven
Dark Souls

This one is beginning at 24 minutes past midnight for easterners on Friday (I was out a little late, oops). It will end... about midnight on Monday morning.

Adriaan, Nathan, Mac, and Mr. Apps will debate this round - any moment now!

Well, about 11:50 Sunday night on the east coast, this round ended. We have a winner!
It's not what he's eating, but what's eating him that makes it ... sort of interesting.
«13

Comments

  • MacstormMacstorm Ysy St. Administrators
    edited May 2014
    Oh snap. Ys Seven vs. Dark Souls...and I'm up this round? Oh boy/
    "The universe is already mad. Anything else would be redundant."
    Twitter @FinalMacstorm
  • PawsPaws Purr RPGamer Staff
    edited May 2014
    I'm only loosely familiar with each, having seen people play them, but not experienced personally. So I look forward to the back and forth :)
  • AncientRuneAncientRune Member Full Members
    edited May 2014
    This one was easy vote for ys 7 ill take fluid arpg over clunky apg any day. Darksouls biggest draw is its difficulty the problem is is that its artificially made. It is skill based but it is also cheap unlike its fans want you to believe. Anyone who pays attention can see that the hit boxes of enemies are bogus, they can hit you when you arent even close to where their weapon swing or thrust is. thats bad battle design.
  • Rya_ReisenderRya_Reisender Solipsist Snowflake Full Members
    edited May 2014
    Challenging action RPG (Ys Seven) vs Unfairly hard action RPG (Dark Souls)

    Easy vote for me: Ys Seven
  • 7thCircle7thCircle Proofer of the Realm RPGamer Staff
    edited May 2014
    Paws wrote: »
    I'm only loosely familiar with each, having seen people play them, but not experienced personally. So I look forward to the back and forth :)

    Ys Seven has been in my backlog for several years. It was one of the last PSP games I bought right before I lost interest in handhelds for a while. I need to read some over-the-top praise to get me excited for the game again so I'll play it.
    The lesson here is that dreams inevitably lead to hideous implosions.
  • MacstormMacstorm Ysy St. Administrators
    edited May 2014
    What really makes Ys Seven (and Celceta by extension) really stand out is the fast battle system with multiple characters. I typically don't care about button mashing, action battle systems, but with Ys you have multiple party members to swap between on the fly while you roll around and dodge in a way that never feels overdone. The balance and care taken in Ys is what helps, as you never feel like you've hit a monster closet where you have to hack everything for minutes before moving on. And then there's the bosses, which require you to do more than just pound away blindly. Like many games, there is a rock-paper-scissors weapon system where certain enemies are weak again spears or bows or swords and you can juggle around between characters with a simple button press to swap. Its simplicity is elegant, but at the same time you are constantly challenged. When I think action battle systems, this is easily the best offering from Japan.
    "The universe is already mad. Anything else would be redundant."
    Twitter @FinalMacstorm
  • WheelsWheels RPGamer Staff RPGamer Staff
    edited May 2014
    This one was easy vote for ys 7 ill take fluid arpg over clunky apg any day. Darksouls biggest draw is its difficulty the problem is is that its artificially made. It is skill based but it is also cheap unlike its fans want you to believe. Anyone who pays attention can see that the hit boxes of enemies are bogus, they can hit you when you arent even close to where their weapon swing or thrust is. thats bad battle design.

    Except no, and also the biggest draw is not the difficulty, which is exaggerated to an extreme degree. Also with the right skill distribution and gear you can easily get over any lack of skill. Not to be a jerk, but have you actually played Dark Souls for more than five minutes?

    This matchup sucks. I love both games' take on the action RPG, and haven't the slightest idea which I'll pick. Help me out folks!

    Zayn-GIF-1.gif
    Ask Wheels- This Week's Episode
    sig.gif
  • Zeboyd GamesZeboyd Games Member Full Members
    edited May 2014
    Ys has the best fast-paced Action/RPG battle system and Dark Souls has the best methodically-paced Action/RPG battle system. Should be interesting to see how this plays out.
    Check out upcoming RPG, Cosmic Star Heroine, at http://cosmicstarheroine.com/
  • MacstormMacstorm Ysy St. Administrators
    edited May 2014
    Wheels wrote: »
    the biggest draw is not the difficulty, which is exaggerated to an extreme degree.
    I cannot stress this enough. Dark Souls is a game where you die a lot, but that does not equal difficulty. It's just a game mechanic.
    "The universe is already mad. Anything else would be redundant."
    Twitter @FinalMacstorm
  • Zeboyd GamesZeboyd Games Member Full Members
    edited May 2014
    Yeah, Dark Souls is a hard game but the idea that it's one of the hardest games ever is completely unwarranted. Unlike most difficult action games, it does not require amazing twitch skills - good preparation (how you build your stats & the equipment & spells you use) & a defensive approach to combat (block/dodge then counter-attack) will get you through the game without too much trouble. And if you really get stuck somewhere, you can always summon help from another player.
    Check out upcoming RPG, Cosmic Star Heroine, at http://cosmicstarheroine.com/
  • OcelotOcelot is not declawed RPGamer Staff
    edited May 2014
    Yeah, Dark Souls is a hard game but the idea that it's one of the hardest games ever is completely unwarranted. Unlike most difficult action games, it does not require amazing twitch skills - good preparation (how you build your stats & the equipment & spells you use) & a defensive approach to combat (block/dodge then counter-attack) will get you through the game without too much trouble. And if you really get stuck somewhere, you can always summon help from another player.

    This is also an eloquent description of why Dark Souls is an RPG and not just a challenging action game. :)

    On another note, I think anybody who has been following this Battle Royale has figured out that I prefer fast action combat to methodical. My non-vote is for Ys all the way, but I haven't even bothered with the Souls games because I just know they aren't my style.
    Becky Cunningham, Staff-at-Large
    Twitter: BeckyCFreelance
  • MacstormMacstorm Ysy St. Administrators
    edited May 2014
    Ocelot wrote: »
    On another note, I think anybody who has been following this Battle Royale has figured out that I prefer fast action combat to methodical. My non-vote is for Ys all the way, but I haven't even bothered with the Souls games because I just know they aren't my style.
    I honestly felt the exact same way about Demon's Souls until I saw someone else playing it in person. Clearly not for everyone, but it was more my thing than I expected.
    "The universe is already mad. Anything else would be redundant."
    Twitter @FinalMacstorm
  • TwinBahamutTwinBahamut Staff Healer RPGamer Staff
    edited May 2014
    Yeah, I bought Demon's Souls off of the recommendation of everyone here (and because it was cheap), but I honestly hated the game at first. It took a miserable string of failures and a few restarts to find a starting class that worked for me before I really got it (hurrah for Temple Knight). Once I did, though, it was absolutely amazing. It's off-putting at first, but once you really understand what it is trying to do and what options are available to you it becomes much easier and more fun to play. It really helps that there are all kinds of builds that support different playstyles, too.

    Anyway, this is going to be a very hard battle to judge. For very different reasons, these are two of the best action-RPGs in this competition. I'm going to need to pull them both out and play them a while before I even attempt to decide.
  • WheelsWheels RPGamer Staff RPGamer Staff
    edited May 2014
    Anyway, this is going to be a very hard battle to judge. For very different reasons, these are two of the best action-RPGs in this competition. I'm going to need to pull them both out and play them a while before I even attempt to decide.

    Yeah I haven't had to do that yet but it may just take that. Really having trouble deciding this one. Going to be tough!
    Ask Wheels- This Week's Episode
    sig.gif
  • omegabyteomegabyte Δ Hidden Forbidden Holy Ground RPGamer Staff
    edited May 2014
    Finally a good match that's worth actually debating. Both these games have great but extremely different takes on action-RPG combat, and both do a wonderful job with their respective styles.

    The best thing about Ys Seven is its speed. It's probably one of the fastest action-RPGs I've ever played, but it never feels like a twitch game. I remember the boss fights being really amazing, since almost all of them were like 10 times the player's size. It's pretty crazy to zip around a behemoth boss, dishing out attacks and dodging like crazy. Having three party members to switch between on the fly was also a lot of fun.

    On the other hand, the best thing about Dark Souls is its lack of speed. The game is hard, but never too hard, and the game rewards patience, preparation, and memory above all else. If you rush head-first into it, you'll die a lot, but if you move slowly and cautiously, and carefully examine your surroundings before moving forward, it's quite easy to progress. If it was faster paced, it wouldn't be a very fun game, at least not with the power-levels the enemies currently have. Like Ys Seven, the game has a ton of memorable boss encounters, many of which are absolute behemoths. One great advantage Dark Souls has over Ys is its customization options. There are a ton of viable playstyles you can work with, so the game has a lot of replayability. Playing as a strength-based melee character and playing as a sorceror is like playing two completely different games.

    I'm not sure how I'll be voting in this round yet. I think I'm leaning a bit towards Dark Souls, but I haven't decided.
    Maybe I'll log out and check my e-mail or something...
  • AncientRuneAncientRune Member Full Members
    edited May 2014
    Wheels wrote: »
    Except no, and also the biggest draw is not the difficulty, which is exaggerated to an extreme degree. Also with the right skill distribution and gear you can easily get over any lack of skill. Not to be a jerk, but have you actually played Dark Souls for more than five minutes?

    This matchup sucks. I love both games' take on the action RPG, and haven't the slightest idea which I'll pick. Help me out folks!

    Zayn-GIF-1.gif

    50 hours+ each never finished more than 25% of any of them though. Maybe i dont like it because no matter what i do or how hard i try i just never get better. also you can not tell me it isnt cheap when i dodge an attack completely and still get hit that is bs, its battle system is just more flawed and less polished than ys

    doesnt matter though cause im voting for xenoblade next round anyway
  • WheelsWheels RPGamer Staff RPGamer Staff
    edited May 2014
    50 hours+ each never finished more than 25% of any of them though. Maybe i dont like it because no matter what i do or how hard i try i just never get better. also you can not tell me it isnt cheap when i dodge an attack completely and still get hit that is bs, its battle system is just more flawed and less polished than ys

    I can't tell you if it's more cheap because I have no idea how your dodging. If dodge a giant club by rolling into the giant club then you've failed to dodge. Not bs in the slightest. Need more information to tell you why "you aren't getting better". What stats are you raising? What equipment have you upgraded? What kinds of weapons have you tried? Are you using magic? Which character build did you start with? Have you considered a good shield instead of dodging?
    Ask Wheels- This Week's Episode
    sig.gif
  • JCServantJCServant Certified Polygameist RPGamer Staff
    edited May 2014
    Wheels wrote: »

    Zayn-GIF-1.gif

    I saw this episode of NXT (via the awesome WWE network), and zomg...my jaw dropped when I saw this move. The guy flies through the turnbuckles, Superman Style, manages to smack into the pole or ropes, and does an aerial head takedown. Amazing. Stuff like this makes NXT soooo worth watching.
    Co-Host on RPGBacktrack. Follow me on Twitter and sub to my blog if you would like!
  • AncientRuneAncientRune Member Full Members
    edited May 2014
    Wheels wrote: »
    I can't tell you if it's more cheap because I have no idea how your dodging. If dodge a giant club by rolling into the giant club then you've failed to dodge. Not bs in the slightest. Need more information to tell you why "you aren't getting better". What stats are you raising? What equipment have you upgraded? What kinds of weapons have you tried? Are you using magic? Which character build did you start with? Have you considered a good shield instead of dodging?

    while i dont have any examples from dark souls, dark souls 2 is even worse so here are a few examples (not mine) but you can see what i mean

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Hjau31ficn8 none of those attacks were even close but he still took damage and they were clearly bs

    always a str/shield build as i hated both range/magic and dex builds i have tried, my problem is not dodging or blocking attacks its sustaining them in a long fight without dying. im extremely prone to stupid mistakes and cant string enough moves together to deplete a foes health to completion

    oh and i dont play online because screw invaders
  • WheelsWheels RPGamer Staff RPGamer Staff
    edited May 2014
    while i dont have any examples from dark souls, dark souls 2 is even worse so here are a few examples (not mine) but you can see what i mean

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Hjau31ficn8 none of those attacks were even close but he still took damage and they were clearly bs

    always a str/shield build as i hated both range/magic and dex builds i have tried, my problem is not dodging or blocking attacks its sustaining them in a long fight without dying. im extremely prone to stupid mistakes and cant string enough moves together to deplete a foes health to completion

    oh and i dont play online because screw invaders

    Haven't seen those issues except on a rare occasion.

    Also "I'm not good at it" is a poor reason to call a game bad.
    Ask Wheels- This Week's Episode
    sig.gif
  • ChickenGodChickenGod Overdosing Heavenly Bliss Moderators
    edited May 2014
    ^ That video highlights one of the problems with Dark Souls 2, being that most bosses hold their weapon of choice in the same hand, and circling to the left is usually not a good idea in general for most of them. I imagine most people who played Dark Souls 2 early on either consciously or subconsciously began circling to the right to avoid attacks. The Fire boss shown in the video, whose name I forget, causes a hilarious blowback glitch if you roll at a certain time during the animation that will keep you in a permanent state of being "blown back" which forces the player to cling to the wall. Outside of this boss in particular, I never encountered any of the broken hitboxes simply because the game teaches you very early on that circling to the right is superior than circling to the left. I get how certain areas are evil in nature, especially the snipers in Anor Londo or the homing BS in the Shrine of Amana, but the vast majority of both games are very fair. Dark Souls 1 in particular felt a little more imbalanced towards the player's side due to some spells being ludicrously powerful.
  • Rya_ReisenderRya_Reisender Solipsist Snowflake Full Members
    edited May 2014
    Wheels wrote: »
    Also "I'm not good at it" is a poor reason to call a game bad.
    I hate it when people say this. It's like saying that people who aren't good at a game aren't meant to enjoy it.

    I might as well say: If you die in a game, despite giving your best, it's bad.
  • watcherwatcher Veteran RPGamer Full Members
    edited May 2014
    Other than PVP lag, which was horrendous in DS1, I didn't notice any particular hit box issues. DS2 is definitely worse right now, the tip of the Pursuer's cursing thrust attack in particular was bad. PvP is much better in DS2, that guy in the video must have a bad connection or something. Given that the enemies' hit boxes probably have the same rate of players getting free shots, it's probably neutral as far as overall balance goes. Rare exceptions don't make the rule anyway.

    Like ChickenGod said, it doesn't take much to notice that dodging toward the enemy's non-weapon hand is more effective. Being conscientiousness, patience, making observations and making decisions based on those observations are part of the point of the game. I find some of the platforming spots more troublesome than most of the enemies.

    I found Ys Seven fun, but fairly easy. You could say that it's unfairly balanced in the player's favor if you want to play that card with this game as well.
  • JCServantJCServant Certified Polygameist RPGamer Staff
    edited May 2014
    I hate it when people say this. It's like saying that people who aren't good at a game aren't meant to enjoy it.

    I might as well say: If you die in a game, despite giving your best, it's bad.

    Hmmm...your first statement almost comes across as a contradiction. If I don't like first person shooters, does that mean I was meant to enjoy it? Generally, FPS games are made with the FPS player in mind. Each one seeks to enhance those elements that appeal to FPS gamers. Most games fall into this line of thought...they are doing one thing, and trying to do it well. If that genre/setting/etc is not for you, I'm not sure that the creators are staying awake at night worrying that they didn't make that game more to your liking!

    There are also cross genre games which are trying to reach across the aisle and appeal to broader gaming base. But, I would argue that if you don't like homoginized, cross-genre games, that such a game may not be for you :P I'm one of those people. I prefer my experiences to be non-homogenized. I doubt creators making the next action/FPSRPG are losing any sleep trying to win me over.

    Now, with that being said, let's move onto your second paragraph about dying in a game.

    If you had added "to you" at the end of that statement, I would agree. But you should not pan a game as being bad for all simply because you kept dying in it over and over. It may be that you generally stink at the game or that genre. I faced this a few times when I was reviewing games. I like to play games without resorting to an FAQ. Yet, on a few, I would hit a brick wall. Castlevania: Order of Ecclesia is a great example. I couldn't, for the life of me, figure out how to get to Dracula's Castle. Eventually, I FAQ'd it, but I was very unhappy. Now, all other elements of the game were pretty good. I spoke with others on staff, and it turns out that no one else faced that problem the way I did. Now, when I review a game for RPGamer, I definitely do it from my personal, subjective viewpoint, but I also feel like I speak for the site and team as a whole, as well. Would it have been fair for me to give that game a poor score because I couldn't figure out that puzzle at the beginning of the game? To call the game "bad" because I stink at secrets would have been a mistake IMHO. As it was, I minimized that irritation as a negative bullet point and gave the game the good score it pretty much deserves.

    Again, I can say "It's bad for me, I'm bad at games that require that you find secrets to move ahead." But, to say that the game was just a bad game as a general statement would be a huge misstep here.

    I have my concerns with the Dark Souls series. But, honestly, outside of some nitpicking, the best I can leverage against it is to say that the methodical, patient approach required by the game is not for me right now. But, given how well it is put together, how solid its combat is, etc., etc., it would be wrong to simply declare it as bad because I struggle with a boss or whatnot.
    Co-Host on RPGBacktrack. Follow me on Twitter and sub to my blog if you would like!
  • AncientRuneAncientRune Member Full Members
    edited May 2014
    Wheels wrote: »
    Haven't seen those issues except on a rare occasion.

    Also "I'm not good at it" is a poor reason to call a game bad.

    its not bad, its just cheap. Same thing with Mario kart's but it doesnt mean i hate either series, if I did I wouldnt play any of them

    Its still not better than Ys 7 though
  • Rya_ReisenderRya_Reisender Solipsist Snowflake Full Members
    edited May 2014
    @jcservant
    This is not about not liking a genre, just about difficulty.
    And basically the point is that ANY game should be designed so that anybody can enjoy it if he wants to. Not liking a game because it's not your genre, that's fine. But actually liking the game until it gets ruined for you because it gets too hard and you can't finish it is just bad design. It's the game's fault and not the player's fault.
    That's why I don't like people saying "Don't blame the game because you suck at it".
  • omegabyteomegabyte Δ Hidden Forbidden Holy Ground RPGamer Staff
    edited May 2014
    @jcservant
    This is not about not liking a genre, just about difficulty.
    And basically the point is that ANY game should be designed so that anybody can enjoy it if he wants to. Not liking a game because it's not your genre, that's fine. But actually liking the game until it gets ruined for you because it gets too hard and you can't finish it is just bad design. It's the game's fault and not the player's fault.
    That's why I don't like people saying "Don't blame the game because you suck at it".

    Dark Souls isn't like that, though. The game has a number of design pitfalls (notably the lack of quick travel in the early parts of the game), but it never gets too hard to beat. There are always options open to the player to surpass any of the obstacles put in front of them, the most obvious of which is simply getting more levels or upgrading their equipment some more. But you can also summon other players to help you, or practice the fight a few times by letting yourself be summoned to help other players. The game gives you so many ways to get better and beat it; if you refuse to make use of those ways, that IS your own fault.
    Maybe I'll log out and check my e-mail or something...
  • watcherwatcher Veteran RPGamer Full Members
    edited May 2014
    And basically the point is that ANY game should be designed so that anybody can enjoy it if he wants to.

    That is fundamentally impossible. There's a reason for all the adages about not being able to please everyone. Even the most popular games in the world don't get anywhere close to what you're asking for. Anyone who's unwilling to learn or adapt their play style to overcome new challenges only has themselves to blame for their inability to finish a fair game like Dark Souls.
  • ChickenGodChickenGod Overdosing Heavenly Bliss Moderators
    edited May 2014
    Dark Souls is a game that caters to an audience that is sick of games being too easy and want a challenge. One of the main goals Dark Souls has is to fill a void that exists in many games now, a lack of difficulty. Seriously, its like being angry that an exclusive club exists that not everyone can join. Dark Souls was meant to be difficult, it has no desire to make things easy enough that anyone can complete it. The very sentiment that anyone of any skill level should be allowed to win is the antithesis of everything Dark Souls is and sets out to do.
  • hyperknees91hyperknees91 Member Full Members
    edited May 2014
    hmm, dark souls has more variety with its battle system while ys seven is the fastest most fluid action rpg ever made. Idk I love the controls of ys seven so much that its hard not to pick it. Also Ys has much much better boss battles then dark souls. Though dark souls has better dungeons and normal enemies for sure.

    If I were to argue, I would say ys seven is actually the more difficult game on nightmare mode just due to boss battles (on any other dark souls trumps it though). Dark Souls is more akin to a puzzle game really. You don't need fast reflexes or anything, just need to know the correct solution to tackle situations. While with ys...you're going to need some degree of skill and reflexes hah.

    They also have the exact same weakness. The second half of the game is fundamently worse for both of them. This is mainly due to the boorish dungeons in the latter half of both.
This discussion has been closed.