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Round 2, Match 18: Ys Seven (2) vs Dark Souls - Winner (3)

2

Comments

  • MacstormMacstorm Ysy St. Administrators
    edited May 2014
    This is really the first truly tough decision for me in this Battle Royale. I really enjoy both games and their battle systems, so I almost want to flip a coin to decide. Dark Souls offers a much deeper battle system with lots of flexibility while Ys Seven is simple, yet fast and still challenging. Dark Souls is addicting and gives you a great feeling of satisfaction upon winning, though can feel unfair at times. Ys is intense and can be fun to just mindlessly tear into things, but can be as hard or as easy as you want.

    I have to get out of my head as to which game I prefer overall (and why) and just focus on the battle systems. I could go either way, and might be convinced to change my mind before the end, but I'm going with...

    Vote: Ys Seven
    "The universe is already mad. Anything else would be redundant."
    Twitter @FinalMacstorm
  • WheelsWheels RPGamer Staff RPGamer Staff
    edited May 2014
    its not bad, its just cheap. Same thing with Mario kart's but it doesnt mean i hate either series, if I did I wouldnt play any of them

    Its still not better than Ys 7 though

    oh, well in that case

    Vote Dark Souls

    :)

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    I hate it when people say this. It's like saying that people who aren't good at a game aren't meant to enjoy it.

    I might as well say: If you die in a game, despite giving your best, it's bad.

    Not every game is everyone's cup of tea.
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  • omegabyteomegabyte He's just this guy, you know? RPGamer Staff
    edited June 2014
    I, too, must Vote: Dark Souls. I still think Demon's Souls is the better game, but the combat in both is awesome. Ys Seven is awesome too, but I give the edge to DS.
    God's Final Message to His creation, written in thirty-foot high letters of fire on the side of the Quentulus Quazgar Mountains:
    We Apologize for the Inconvenience
  • TwinBahamutTwinBahamut Staff Healer RPGamer Staff
    edited June 2014
    Ugh, so hard to choose... I had pretty much convinced myself to choose Dark Souls, but then I went back and replayed Ys Seven for the first time in a while. I'd forgotten exactly how fast it was and many of its complexities. Dodging in and out of enemy attacks as you harass them with basic strikes, hitting them with charge attacks to fuel your special moves, and then striking the enemy with those when they open themselves up to attack... There really is a lot more to it than I'd remembered, and I liked it even when I couldn't remember those details.

    At the same time, Dark Souls is still amazing. It requires patience and forethought but isn't slow or clunky, and it gives you a wide range of ways to build your character and tactics to choose from for each fight. Paying attention to the area around you, learning how the different encounters work, and figuring out your own strengths and weaknesses are all important factors. Dark Souls has a fair number of problems, but its battle system is simply superb. Even the most basic of battles against the weakest of enemies can be an interesting challenge, and overcoming those challenges is what makes it so fun.

    Still, accounting for the way the poll is going, it looks like the match is tied right now and I have the deciding vote. Great. *sigh*

    In the end, I think I'm going to have to vote for Dark Souls. Ys Seven is really fun, there is no doubt about it, but Demon's Souls and Dark Souls are the games I want to keep going back to. Ys Seven is going to play the same way no matter how many times you go through it, but the different fighting styles and options within the Souls series' battle system gives many new choices for each new playthrough, and it is more adaptable to different players' own styles.

    Sorry Ys fans. It just had an unlucky matchup.
  • MacstormMacstorm Ysy St. Administrators
    edited June 2014
    I was going to be fine with this either way, but my Ys vote was really a mercy vote. I figured this might be the outcome and am OK with it.
    "The universe is already mad. Anything else would be redundant."
    Twitter @FinalMacstorm
  • AncientRuneAncientRune Member Full Members
    edited June 2014
    contrary to popular belief im not too upset that Souls won the staff vote, how does the poll vote factor into deciding the winner is it just a tie breaker or of its a landslide can it overtake a 3-1 vote
  • Rya_ReisenderRya_Reisender Solipsist Snowflake Full Members
    edited June 2014
    watcher wrote: »
    That is fundamentally impossible. There's a reason for all the adages about not being able to please everyone. Even the most popular games in the world don't get anywhere close to what you're asking for. Anyone who's unwilling to learn or adapt their play style to overcome new challenges only has themselves to blame for their inability to finish a fair game like Dark Souls.
    But there is a difference between trying to make the game enjoyable for everyone and not being able to do this perfectly and intentionally making it only for a small group (which was done for Dark Souls). And I'm saying the latter is bad.

    I'm all for offering people a very hard challenge, but then please also offer an easy mode for those who don't want that.
  • omegabyteomegabyte He's just this guy, you know? RPGamer Staff
    edited June 2014
    An easy mode in dark souls would completely defeat the purpose of the game. There is practically no story, its all ambience and sense of tension. If the game was easy, it would be the dullest game ever.
    God's Final Message to His creation, written in thirty-foot high letters of fire on the side of the Quentulus Quazgar Mountains:
    We Apologize for the Inconvenience
  • TheAnimeManTheAnimeMan Member Full Members
    edited June 2014
    And there is no such thing as a game meant for everybody. Look at Square-Enix more recent games where they have tried to please every one and have ended up please practically no one
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    28 years of gaming and still going strong
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  • watcherwatcher Veteran RPGamer Full Members
    edited June 2014
    But there is a difference between trying to make the game enjoyable for everyone and not being able to do this perfectly and intentionally making it only for a small group (which was done for Dark Souls). And I'm saying the latter is bad.

    I'm all for offering people a very hard challenge, but then please also offer an easy mode for those who don't want that.

    Why would that be bad? Are you saying the preferences of smaller groups should get the shaft?
  • DarkRPGMasterDarkRPGMaster A Witness to Destruction Moderators
    edited June 2014
    But there is a difference between trying to make the game enjoyable for everyone and not being able to do this perfectly and intentionally making it only for a small group (which was done for Dark Souls). And I'm saying the latter is bad.
    Except then we wouldn't have Visual Novels in the west, the SMT games, Fire Emblem, etc. You must remember, all started out as a niche, which Dark Souls fits the bill of. It's a niche game, meant for a specific crowd.
    "Yes, because apparently blindly jumping headfirst into a firefight without a grasp on the situation or any combat experience is a sign of genius these days."
  • hyperknees91hyperknees91 Member Full Members
    edited June 2014
    Except then we wouldn't have Visual Novels in the west, the SMT games, Fire Emblem, etc. You must remember, all started out as a niche, which Dark Souls fits the bill of. It's a niche game, meant for a specific crowd.


    I always consider Dark Souls to be like Breath of Fire Dragon Quarter's action rpg equivelent. It's cryptic and more focused on atmosphere than story, and while neither are extremely hard, both are highly punishing and will basically destroy players who don't pay attention. Though back then I don't think people were ready for that kind of RPG (well and the fact that it's an oddball entry in an established franchise).

    Dark Souls managed to click and sell really well....for some reason? I guess because people have been bantering that games have gotten too casual for some reason and Dark Souls was marketed well to appeal to those people (even though there were plenty of other non-casual games on the market).
  • MacstormMacstorm Ysy St. Administrators
    edited June 2014
    But there is a difference between trying to make the game enjoyable for everyone and not being able to do this perfectly and intentionally making it only for a small group (which was done for Dark Souls). And I'm saying the latter is bad.

    I'm all for offering people a very hard challenge, but then please also offer an easy mode for those who don't want that.
    There is an easy mode. It's called playing as a pyromancer.

    And no, the poll vote cannot overtake a 3-1 vote due to the fact that there is no accountability to keep it from just being a popularity vote.
    "The universe is already mad. Anything else would be redundant."
    Twitter @FinalMacstorm
  • omegabyteomegabyte He's just this guy, you know? RPGamer Staff
    edited June 2014
    Dark Souls went mainstream thanks to word of mouth about Demon's Souls. After Demon's won numerous goty awards from major outlets, the sequel got picked up by Namco and marketed like hell (Namco has never marketed any of their games as fiercely in the west as they have Dark Souls).

    It actually makes me kinda sad that Namco is reaping the rewards from Atlus's huge risk with Demon's Souls.
    God's Final Message to His creation, written in thirty-foot high letters of fire on the side of the Quentulus Quazgar Mountains:
    We Apologize for the Inconvenience
  • hyperknees91hyperknees91 Member Full Members
    edited June 2014
    Well I meant I'm surprised demon souls got much recognition. I guess upon thinking about it, there really wasn't any "next-gen" hardcore games quite like it. I'm pretty happy it did though because its leading to more games like it.
  • JuMeSynJuMeSyn Code: Kirin Administrators
    edited June 2014
    Let's close this round down a few minutes early.
    Ys Seven 122 56.74%
    Dark Souls 93 43.26%
    Total Votes 215
    It's not what he's eating, but what's eating him that makes it ... sort of interesting.
  • 7thCircle7thCircle Proofer of the Realm RPGamer Staff
    edited June 2014
    Interestingly, Dark Souls won both its matches because the staff went against the poll. A sign that we're out of touch in how we rate this game, or are the masses wrong?

    I think this has only happened 3 times out of the 18 matches so far, and 2 of them were Dark Souls.
    The lesson here is that dreams inevitably lead to hideous implosions.
  • ChickenGodChickenGod Overdosing Heavenly Bliss Moderators
    edited June 2014
    7thCircle wrote: »
    Interestingly, Dark Souls won both its matches because the staff went against the poll. A sign that we're out of touch in how we rate this game, or are the masses wrong?

    There's likely only around 200-400 people voting judging by these poll results. Maybe even less than that if a single person is allowed multiple votes over a period of time. Clearly I have no idea what these voters prefer, as I've come to learn from most of my previous predictions. While I pretty much expected most of the staff votes, I have no idea what this select group of our voting readers prefer and consistently guessed their vote incorrectly based on what I've seen or heard about from the Gamefaqs polls.

    If we had this poll with a larger audience my money would be on Dark Souls by a large margin based on purely on the number of people that haven't played Ys alone.
    "Looks like Teach just got tenure!" - Teach
  • Rya_ReisenderRya_Reisender Solipsist Snowflake Full Members
    edited June 2014
    Sometimes the staff just likes weird games. =p
    Well I guess you could say that there are more people liking intentionally hard games in the staff than there are in the broad masses.

    Also even if you weight the staff votes a lot more than the players, having 4 people decide between two games won't really give you "representative" results. Especially since the staff is very... opinion-focused, as in not trying to rate objectively and be fully convinced that any rating should be subjective.
  • MacstormMacstorm Ysy St. Administrators
    edited June 2014
    Ahahahaha, rate objectively! Love it.
    "The universe is already mad. Anything else would be redundant."
    Twitter @FinalMacstorm
  • WheelsWheels RPGamer Staff RPGamer Staff
    edited June 2014
    Sometimes the staff just likes weird games. =p

    Well we do, there's no doubt about that, however we're hardly weird as far as our opinions on the Souls games go.

    AND we all do love Ys Seven don't forget. As this thing goes on we're going to be increasingly torn in these matchups.
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  • flamethrowerflamethrower Member Full Members
    edited June 2014
    As for Dark Souls, I don't like the game. I accuse it of "trial-and-error gameplay" like many others. Yes, it's been discussed that maybe it's not and I get that it might not be. For me it was/is. Anyway, I gave up on Dark Souls due to difficulty. It doesn't respect my time enough, making me go through a 5-minute section just to have another go at the boss. But as for the battle system it's quite solid and worthy of picking.

    Ys Seven annoys you on boss battles too. Most bosses, though not all of them, have the turns red mechanic where they become more difficult to deal with when their HP is low (might be in Dark Souls too, I don't know). This is either at 1/2 or 1/3 HP depending on the boss. It's literal in some cases that the boss actually turns red. Anyway, if you need practice or die on the "red" part, you have to play through the non-red part again, which can be >5 minutes in some cases.
  • PawsPaws Purr RPGamer Staff
    edited June 2014
    I'm sure it comes as a real shock some people can't distinguish a bad game and a game they don't like. Still some time to throw down any final thoughts before we close this one out.
  • Rya_ReisenderRya_Reisender Solipsist Snowflake Full Members
    edited June 2014
    Paws wrote: »
    I'm sure it comes as a real shock some people can't distinguish a bad game and a game they don't like. Still some time to throw down any final thoughts before we close this one out.
    Or maybe some people just like a game so much that they don't see it's a bad game.
  • PawsPaws Purr RPGamer Staff
    edited June 2014
    That statement would be far more credible coming from just about anyone else. From you, it has none.
  • TheAnimeManTheAnimeMan Member Full Members
    edited June 2014
    Rya just cause you don't like a game doesn't mean it's a bad game, it's just a bad game for you. Considering how many awards it has generated by various sources the game it self must be pretty good.

    Do I admit to wanting to play it no. I'm not fond of brutal games and am known for playing most of my games on the easiest of settings as I enjoy story. So yes the game would be bad for me. However that doesn't mean it's a bad game. I think making games that hard is stupid and evil. Harder then current games I totally agree with but down right brutal where just walking into a room can kill you is not my cup of tea
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  • WheelsWheels RPGamer Staff RPGamer Staff
    edited June 2014
    Or maybe some people just like a game so much that they don't see it's a bad game.

    brodus_clay_william_regal_dance_gif_by_protenpinner-d4nklfs.gif

    The problem isn't you haven't made a case for Dark Souls being a bad game. I've hardly had to say much because so many have made a case for Dark Souls being a brilliant game. I certainly understand the frustration of not being good at the games in the series because I've been there with the steep learning curve. Once you get it though? The games are aces.

    Moral of the story - Ys Seven and Dark Souls games for all!
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  • omegabyteomegabyte He's just this guy, you know? RPGamer Staff
    edited June 2014
    Or maybe some people just like a game so much that they don't see it's a bad game.

    *cough* Star Ocean 4 *cough*
    God's Final Message to His creation, written in thirty-foot high letters of fire on the side of the Quentulus Quazgar Mountains:
    We Apologize for the Inconvenience
  • JCServantJCServant Certified Polygameist RPGamer Staff
    edited June 2014
    I enjoy how Dark Souls battle system and difficulty works with other elements (graphics, atmosphere, etc) to really draws the player into the role of the character you play. Often, we talk about going through dangerous, dark dungeons fighting deadly beasts and massive dragons & bosses. In the Dark Souls series, you actually feel it, emotionally. As I opened up each door and walked down the hallways, I felt powerful, and yet vulnerable, at the same time.... knowing that my next step may be my last. I keep my shield up, and my eyes opened lest I be undone by a trap or monster hiding in the shadows. When something did jump out, I had to react quickly... yet not let panic cause me to err, because a mistake in any fight costs dearly. And because death does carry a substantial penalty, I did everything to protect my life... as I would if I was really in that situation. When I did die, many times I felt my own lack of preparation, improper timing, etc., was the blame in my unfortunate demise, and not some cheap attempt by the game to teach me humility.

    When you ask people to describe what elements most pull players into their character's role in an RPG, players will say things like open-ended, choices (and consequences), good story, customization, etc. Few of us actually consider the Battle system as actually contributing to the role playing experience itself. Dark souls is one that does so most excellently, IMHO. Its combat does an excellent job of pulling me into the role of my fantasy alter ego, a would-be hero working his way through dangerous lands and dungeons filled with traps, monsters and dark magic.

    While I understand not everyone will enjoy it (and in all honesty, I do not want to play it often), I would encourage everyone to at least try it. You might be pleasantly surprised how its famed difficulty actually pulls you into that fantasy experience like nothing else.
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  • Rya_ReisenderRya_Reisender Solipsist Snowflake Full Members
    edited June 2014
    You guys are silly.

    I'm not sure if you are aware of it, but I'm just mimicking you guys by writing the opposite in the same way as you do to illustrate how silly it is, but then you always take it seriously and claim that the statement doesn't work by which you also nullify what you said before.
    For example: It's fine to tell someone that the game isn't bad and that he just sucks at it. But it's not fine to tell someone that the game is bad and he just likes it too much? The opinion of the first person isn't worth more than the one of the second.
    Or when someone says that my taste doesn't matter as much as others. I might as well say that my statements matter more than others because I'm the only one capable of objectively reviewing around here. Same thing just in the other direction.
    It's silly to even weight it.

    As for objectively evaluating Dark Souls, I think omegabyte explained himself already why it's a bad game:
    An easy mode in dark souls would completely defeat the purpose of the game. There is practically no story, its all ambience and sense of tension. If the game was easy, it would be the dullest game ever.
    Basically the only thing that makes Dark Souls good according to him is the high difficulty. Every 10 year old child can make a game and decide to make it intentionally hard. There is no skill needed for something like that. There is nothing brilliant in the game. The game is simply feeding upon the fact that some humans what to be challenged to their limits.
    Even though this makes the game subjectively good for those people, it will stay objectively bad, because it just doesn't have to offer more.

    But hey, if you like a challenge and like this game that's great. I will even give you a recommendation: Check out "Volgarr the Viking".
    Star Ocean 4
    That's kind off-topic, but Star Ocean 4 is a pretty good game in all aspects except story. The battle system was perfected, the OST is excellent, it has a great sense of exploration and really good dungeon design no other modern JRPG can keep up with. So if you'd rate it objectively it's probably 4/5 or 5/5 in all aspects except story which is probably just 2/5 (though that strongly depends on how you want to define the quality of a parody). Yet despite it being a good game some people don't like it? Why? There are plenty of subjective reasons. Some people need a good story in their RPGs. Some people don't like real time battle systems. But it's all subjective reasons to not like it.

    And to get back on-topic: It's basically the opposite of Dark Souls which is objectively bad but is liked due to subjective reasons.
This discussion has been closed.