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Round 2, Match 18: Ys Seven (2) vs Dark Souls - Winner (3)

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Comments

  • omegabyteomegabyte He's just this guy, you know? RPGamer Staff
    edited June 2014
    I don't think you understand what the word "objectively" actually means, or understand why any opinion of any kind on anything cannot be objective. It's impossible. An opinion is subjective by nature, because it is a person's opinion. Pretty much everything you said about Star Ocean 4 isn't objective, it's YOUR subjective opinion, just as everything you said about Dark Souls is just YOUR subjective opinion.

    More to the point, Dark Souls has a carefully crafted, slow-paced combat system that requires patience to use good, but controls fluidly and is easy to learn. It has very little story, but it has a ridiculous amount of ambiance which more than makes up for its minimalistic plot. However, ambiance is strictly tied into the perception of danger, which is why Dark Souls would be a terrible game if it were easy. Don't misunderstand that for suggesting that it's hard, either, because it's actually quite fairly balanced and anyone can beat it with enough patience and strategy. As a comparison, would a survival horror game be any fun if there was no threat of death? Dark Souls is very much a survival-horror RPG, and removing the threat of death by making it easy would destroy what it is.

    As for Star Ocean 4, while I'll grant that it's combat system is very good and the story is very, very bad, everything else you said about it is not only entirely subjective, but I disagree with it entirely. The dungeon design is absolutely atrocious. The levels are arbitrarily large, and there is no real sense of exploration because there really isn't anything to discover. You can find a few berries in a dead end, but there's nothing of value or worth there. If you want exploration done well, you should try a Bethesda game. If you want exploration in a Japanese-developed RPG done well, you should try -- wait for it -- DARK SOULS. The game has tons of hidden items and shortcuts to be discovered for those who look hard enough - granted, Dark Souls has some issues in this department as well; warp becomes available way too late in the game, and is far too limited, making backtracking necessary for a large part of the early game, but it's still miles above SO4. SO4's pacing is also terrible, fraught with needlessly long and really terrible cutscenes as well as a number of dungeons that are way too large for their own good, with save points that are spread way too far apart. The crafting system requires you to return to your ship to make use of, which requires needless backtracking until warp FINALLY becomes available at the very end of the game. There are countless reasons why the game is bad, beyond the ridiculous story.

    Still, this is a subjective opinion, just as YOURS IS, but unlike yours, I've backed mine up with examples and specific reasons. Unlike you, I've played both games through to their completion (and Ys Seven as well) and have the knowledge to back my opinion up.
    Maybe I'll log out and check my e-mail or something...
  • Rya_ReisenderRya_Reisender Solipsist Snowflake Full Members
    edited June 2014
    I'm actually pretty convinced I'd like Dark Souls if it has an easy more. I also like Horror games in which you can't actually die.
    If you are saying it has good exploration, then your point about it needing to be hard is nullified. What if someone just wants to explore without the danger of death?

    I really don't get how you can say that SO4 has bad dungeon design, though. That's so far from reality that I don't even know how to react on that. Large dungeons are a good thing, unless they are linear (which they aren't in SO4). And there's no need for every single dead end to have something useful (it's actually good design if some dead ends have nothing at all). Though I can agree that some sections could need a few more save points.
  • JCServantJCServant Certified Polygameist RPGamer Staff
    edited June 2014
    You guys are silly.

    I'm not sure if you are aware of it, but I'm just mimicking you guys by writing the opposite in the same way as you do to illustrate how silly it is, but then you always take it seriously and claim that the statement doesn't work by which you also nullify what you said before.

    I'm not sure if you are aware of it...but you come across as anything but silly/funny/etc. I don't even know how to take most of what you write. Most of it just comes off as disconnected or immature, to me. Making statements like "Dark Souls is objectively bad" just ... man... I don't even know where to begin. Its like everything you say is an oxymoron. Objectively bad? Really?

    And, while all opinions are subjective, and you're entitled to your own, I believe you'll find that you're in the minority there. I'll be the first to say that the series isn't for me (not at this point in my life where my time and patience are limited), but I would never call the game 'bad.' Much about that game is executed so well, and the parts of the whole do an awesome job of drawing you into the character and setting much better than a well written RPG prologue or story.
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  • WheelsWheels RPGamer Staff RPGamer Staff
    edited June 2014
    Basically the only thing that makes Dark Souls good according to him is the high difficulty. Every 10 year old child can make a game and decide to make it intentionally hard. There is no skill needed for something like that.

    Well yes there is actually, because a difficult game still needs to be balanced as to not just be impossible to win. Dark Souls approach isn't "this game is tough" though. It's "this game is not your friend and is not going to hold your hand". There is plenty of stuff in each of the games to largely crack them open and make them mostly a cake walk for smart players willing to learn the systems. Even if you don't do that, all it requires is patience and careful thought on how to overcome challenges. Too often people get stuck because they just bash their head against the game trying THE SAME THING over and over again.

    So as far as an "easy mode" goes for Dark Souls it would completely break what the game is, not because the game is intentionally incredibly brutal, but because it's very much in the old school mindset of not holding the player's hand. Easy mode exists, it's just a matter of you finding it for yourself (for me it was making an awesome wizard).

    Now for the topic at hand, is this approach strictly from a combat perspective better than Ys Seven's approach of laying it's system bare and challenging (those that pick a higher difficulty) through tough bosses and a mix of enemy weaknesses to push players to switch controlled characters? To me, yes, hence my vote. There's a ton of approaches to action rpgs and to me Dark Souls has found a fantastic way to balance both sides of the coin. Ys Seven while providing absolutely fun combat, doesn't do enough to provide enough in its RPG bits to win this round for me.


    I'm not even going to comment on your objectivity nonsense.

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  • MacstormMacstorm Ysy St. Administrators
    edited June 2014
    Wheels wrote: »
    So as far as an "easy mode" goes for Dark Souls...
    ...it exists and is called using magic.
    "The universe is already mad. Anything else would be redundant."
    Twitter @FinalMacstorm
  • WheelsWheels RPGamer Staff RPGamer Staff
    edited June 2014
    Macstorm wrote: »
    ...it exists and is called using magic.

    Well..............
    Wheels wrote: »
    Easy mode exists, it's just a matter of you finding it for yourself (for me it was making an awesome wizard).
    Ask Wheels- This Week's Episode
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  • DarkRPGMasterDarkRPGMaster A Witness to Destruction Moderators
    edited June 2014
    Macstorm wrote: »
    ...it exists and is called using magic.
    I thought they fixed that. I know Magic was easy mode in Demon Souls though.
    "Yes, because apparently blindly jumping headfirst into a firefight without a grasp on the situation or any combat experience is a sign of genius these days."
  • MacstormMacstorm Ysy St. Administrators
    edited June 2014
    Pyromancy was pretty much easy mode.
    "The universe is already mad. Anything else would be redundant."
    Twitter @FinalMacstorm
  • omegabyteomegabyte He's just this guy, you know? RPGamer Staff
    edited June 2014
    Macstorm wrote: »
    Pyromancy was pretty much easy mode.

    Magic was even more powerful once you gained access to the Soul Spear spells. A 50-int character with an arsenal of soul spears could decimate most bosses. Of course, that doesn't make getting through the levels any easier; the spells had a very limited number of casts and you kinda had to save them for the big guys.
    Maybe I'll log out and check my e-mail or something...
  • PawsPaws Purr RPGamer Staff
    edited June 2014
    Time goes *ding*, thread goes close.
This discussion has been closed.