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Round 2, Match 21: Bravely Default - Winner (3) vs. Breath of Fire D Q (2)

2

Comments

  • TheAnimeManTheAnimeMan Member Full Members
    edited June 2014
    Dragon Quarter needs to burn with the deepest darkest volcanic pit of hell and never emerge from it's firey death
    sig.gif

    28 years of gaming and still going strong
    and now a mostly annoyed Father with first son. And now a father again to a second son :D

    Winner of the 2015-2016 Fantasy gaming Pool
  • MacstormMacstorm Ysy St. Administrators
    edited June 2014
    Waiting on the tie breaker to emerge. Thankfully, the next round is a week away, so we can spare a little bit of time on this one.
    "The universe is already mad. Anything else would be redundant."
    Twitter @FinalMacstorm
  • JuMeSynJuMeSyn Code: Kirin Administrators
    edited June 2014
    On that note, let's see the reader vote that necessitates a tie breaker:
    Bravely Default 219 72.52%
    Breath of Fire: Dragon Quarter 83 27.48%
    Total Votes 302
    It's not what he's eating, but what's eating him that makes it ... sort of interesting.
  • TheAnimeManTheAnimeMan Member Full Members
    edited June 2014
    And so readers had to break the lock between Staff, that's pretty awesome. POWER TO THE PEOPLE
    sig.gif

    28 years of gaming and still going strong
    and now a mostly annoyed Father with first son. And now a father again to a second son :D

    Winner of the 2015-2016 Fantasy gaming Pool
  • Strawberry EggsStrawberry Eggs Hands off the parfait! Administrators
    edited June 2014
    Not quite, AnimeMan. We have two votes for Dragon Quarter (CofLSilk and JCServant) and two for Bravely Default (Ocelot and the readers). We're still waiting on 7thCircle's vote.
    Bravely second...
    The courage to try again...

    Twitter: BerryEggs

  • DarkRPGMasterDarkRPGMaster A Witness to Destruction Moderators
    edited June 2014
    I personally feel he's a bit of a wildcard for this match, so it can go either way. I hope for Dragon Quarter's victory, but I won't be surprised if Bravely Default wins due to a combination of nostalgia (nobody can deny it has the power of that going for it) and its own unique battle flavor (which is combined with that which we've seen 100 times before).
    "Yes, because apparently blindly jumping headfirst into a firefight without a grasp on the situation or any combat experience is a sign of genius these days."
  • WheelsWheels RPGamer Staff RPGamer Staff
    edited June 2014
    Randy Orton says:

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    Ask Wheels- This Week's Episode
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  • 7thCircle7thCircle Proofer of the Realm RPGamer Staff
    edited June 2014
    Whoops, lost track of time in a 4X strategy game.

    Sadly, as convincing as Randy's argument is, this one isn't close for me. I went into detail in the round 1 threads for these games, so I'll dump the short version here because I'm late. Dragon Quarter's combat is bad, Bravely Default's combat is good.

    Vote: Bravely Default
    The lesson here is that dreams inevitably lead to hideous implosions.
  • OcelotOcelot is not declawed RPGamer Staff
    edited June 2014
    That was dirty pool, Wheels, but all's well in the end! ;)
    Becky Cunningham, Staff-at-Large
    Twitter: BeckyCFreelance
  • ShayminShaymin The Gratitude Pokemon Halifax, New SealandFull Members
    edited June 2014
    "Wait a minute.. it's Glenn! Glenn Wilson's here!"
    "BUT WHOSE SIDE IS HE ON?"
    7thCircle wrote:
    All you Dragon Quarter fans can stick it, BROTHER!
    "The flowers all over its body burst into bloom if it is lovingly hugged and senses gratitude."
    Twitter | A gaming podcast by grownups | Nintendo World Report news editor
  • Strawberry EggsStrawberry Eggs Hands off the parfait! Administrators
    edited June 2014
    I probably shouldn't be so glad that Bravely Default won, seeing as I never played Dragon Quarter, but well. I am. :D This game's battle system has a really good chance of becoming one of my most favorite ever.
    Bravely second...
    The courage to try again...

    Twitter: BerryEggs

  • MacstormMacstorm Ysy St. Administrators
    edited June 2014
    Poor Dragon Quarter, I never knew ye.
    "The universe is already mad. Anything else would be redundant."
    Twitter @FinalMacstorm
  • WheelsWheels RPGamer Staff RPGamer Staff
    edited June 2014
    7thCircle wrote: »
    Whoops, lost track of time in a 4X strategy game.

    Sadly, as convincing as Randy's argument is, this one isn't close for me. I went into detail in the round 1 threads for these games, so I'll dump the short version here because I'm late. Dragon Quarter's combat is bad, Bravely Default's combat is good.

    Vote: Bravely Default

    et tu 7th? et tu?

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    200_s.gif
    Ask Wheels- This Week's Episode
    sig.gif
  • DarkRPGMasterDarkRPGMaster A Witness to Destruction Moderators
    edited June 2014
    Saddened by the winning of Bravely Default. I do need to play the game sometime, but just from looking at gameplay videos, it looks like it'd suffer the same curse Radiant Historia has with its battle system...it's going to be too easy.
    "Yes, because apparently blindly jumping headfirst into a firefight without a grasp on the situation or any combat experience is a sign of genius these days."
  • TwinBahamutTwinBahamut Staff Healer RPGamer Staff
    edited June 2014
    Well, kinda sad to see Dragon Quarter lose. Didn't expect to see it turn out this way.

    Oh well. I've got my issues with Bravely Default, but most of them aren't directly related to the battle system and I really do like its battles. I want to be annoyed by this turnout (since I like Dragon Quarter so much), but I really can't be. Let's see how far Bravely Default can go.
  • WheelsWheels RPGamer Staff RPGamer Staff
    edited June 2014
    Saddened by the winning of Bravely Default. I do need to play the game sometime, but just from looking at gameplay videos, it looks like it'd suffer the same curse Radiant Historia has with its battle system...it's going to be too easy.

    Well it does have harder difficulties you can play on
    Ask Wheels- This Week's Episode
    sig.gif
  • JCServantJCServant Certified Polygameist RPGamer Staff
    edited June 2014
    I think one thing that's disappointing about the difficulty slider is that there's no discernible reward for making things harder. I tried it myself and the XP/JP/etc gains seemed the same as the lower difficulty levels, lol. That's a missed opportunity IMHO.
  • TwinBahamutTwinBahamut Staff Healer RPGamer Staff
    edited June 2014
    Yeah, it's nothing as sophisticated as, say, The World Ends With You's difficulty system, but it works well as simply a way to choose your preferred level of challenge.

    Also, part of me wishes that Bravely Default was too easy. The last dungeon I walked into kinda, well, utterly broke my will to keep going. It'll come back, but I've been having trouble moving forward because of it. I wonder if it is designed so you come back to it later or something, because that was one impressive difficulty spike...
  • Strawberry EggsStrawberry Eggs Hands off the parfait! Administrators
    edited June 2014
    Some people like a challenge for the sake of a challenge. Increasing EXP, JP and Pg would kind of defeat the purpose of making the game harder by having characters gain levels and job levels faster. Although having rarer items as an incentive for increasing the difficulty would be interesting.

    Normal is challenging enough, I think. I don't mind easy random encounters that go by quickly, and there are enough enemy types where spamming brave isn't a smart idea. The Cerberuses in Vampire Castle counter physical attacks, have high magic resistance, and do a lot of damage. There are also enemies that will cause status aliments like poison, sleep, and paralysis by hitting them. There's always spamming magic, but then that'll go down too quickly.
    Bravely second...
    The courage to try again...

    Twitter: BerryEggs

  • JCServantJCServant Certified Polygameist RPGamer Staff
    edited June 2014
    Some people like a challenge for the sake of a challenge. Increasing EXP, JP and PG would kind of defeat the purpose of making the game harder by having characters gain levels and job levels faster.

    I disagree...and I'll tell you why. Increasing XP, etc doesn't make the game easier to get through (thereby defeating the whole point of a hard mode), but actually just levels the playing field a bit.

    For the most part, on normal, I can Brave all at 4x speed and tear through mobs faster than a hot knife through butter...both in terms of number of turns and real time clock.

    When I increased the difficulty level, mobs had more HPs. As a result, spamming Brave and putting the game on 4x speed would usually end in my demise :P So, I had to slow down to 1x, and stop spamming Braves. Battles took more turns and a LOT more time on the clock. So, it took me longer to level. It felt like I was being punished, not rewarded, for taking on a harder challenge.

    I'm not saying there isn't some value to some players to crank up the difficulty. To each their own. But, generally, slowing down the leveling process is considered a negative to most players... and therefore, the result of a higher difficulty level that pays out the same XP/JP/PG feels more like a punishment.

    Compare that to, let's say, FFXIV... when I take a leve quest there (or whatever its called), I do have the option to make it harder for incremental rewards. Generally, harder takes longer as mobs have more armor and HPs. As terms of raw time spent to rewards earned, it nearly balances out. So, often, I make that decision just based on whether or not I feel like taking on more challenge, or relaxing more.
    Normal is challenging enough, I think. I don't mind easy random encounters that go by quickly, and there are enough enemy types were spamming brave isn't a smart idea. The cereberuses in Vampire Castle counter physical attacks, have high magic resistance, and do a lot of damage. There are also enemies that will cause status aliments like poison, sleep, and paralysis by hitting them. There's always spamming magic, but then that'll go down too quickly.

    I found that when I got to a new area, if I wanted to continue to play on normal, I often had to slow down and level a bit before spamming 4x Brave worked again. But, since leveling with 4x Brave (at 4x speed) is SOOO much faster than normal fighting, I often found myself finding ways to getting back to that point in new areas. Its wierd. On one hand, we complain its too easy...but on the other hand, if its hard enough to make us slow down and think, we complain that the rewards aren't as awesome. This contradiction makes more sense when you keep in mind that many RPGamers are wired to want to level and become more powerful...and if there's a faster/easier way to do that, they're generally going to take that road over the long, hard road (unless there's a carrot at the end of that road...like a good ending or ultimate weapon or something).

    That's my struggle with BD's systems (both combat and non combat). All these controls which impact random encounter rates, difficulty, etc., should make me happy...and yet, instead, I find myself often just choosing the easiest road that lets me level the fastest. It's odd... and I don't know exactly how to describe the issue. I'm actually finding FFV (which I'm playing concurrently) more satisfying thus far despite the fact that it does not have those sliders and its archaic in so many ways by comparison.

    PS: I'm thinking a bit more about the idea of harder battles = more XP.

    The more I think about it, the more I think they should have built that in. How is having scaling rewards based on where that slider is that any different from a player going to an easier/harder area, seeking out easier/harder mobs and getting naturally smaller/larger rewards? Hmmmm...
  • Strawberry EggsStrawberry Eggs Hands off the parfait! Administrators
    edited June 2014
    This is largely unrelated, as that those are very valid reasoning, and I don't really seek out challenging regular battles. I love challenging boss fights, but don't at all mind easy regular battles, unless the battles are too slow. However, I need to get around to test spamming brave on those Cerberuses. They were tough even at mid-70, but now that everyone is 92, maybe it is possible. :P
    Bravely second...
    The courage to try again...

    Twitter: BerryEggs

  • JCServantJCServant Certified Polygameist RPGamer Staff
    edited June 2014
    Yeah. A lot of this is subjective, but I enjoy talking about it. If nothing else, it helps me to understand why some Bravely Defaults mechanics aren't connecting with me as well as FFV's... even though on paper, they really should. The ability to change encounter rates, difficulty rating, auto fight, take four turns at once to wipe out random encounters...these seem like no brainers to improve the stale JRPG formula and answer numerous complaints that even long time fans my weigh against the typical JRPG. Hmmmm....
  • ironmageironmage chaotic neutral observer SaskatoonFull Members
    edited June 2014
    Some people like a challenge for the sake of a challenge. Increasing EXP, JP and PG would kind of defeat the purpose of making the game harder by having characters gain levels and job levels faster. Although having rarer items as an incentive for increasing the difficulty would be interest.

    I think I agree with Strawberry on this one. I increase the difficulty to make battles more challenging. Getting more XP, and levelling up faster, would make the game easier again, and that is the opposite of what I want. (I wouldn't complain about getting more PG, or better items, because I always have the option of not using them.)

    I played through Bravely Default most of the way on hard, and avoided grinding until I reached the point it was absolutely unavoidable (I hit a difficulty spike, and was often getting wiped out on the first round of battle). It would have been very seldom that 4x Brave with all characters would be a usable tactic; that would just have gotten me killed. However, since I was playing the game that way from the start, I didn't see this as punishment; it was just the way the game worked.

    Mind you, this approach meant it took me longer than average to finish the game, which would be a problem for many people.

    But, I'm the kind of person who would rather spend two hours fighting the same boss battle over and over again, trying different approaches, and refining my understanding of the battle system, than spend half an hour grinding for an easy win. Once the game goes back in the box, all those earned experience points mean nothing, but an improvement to my skills lasts a little bit longer. (I have a fairly strong opinion about Demon's Souls).
    In order to avoid vitiating my argument, it's best that I don't admit that I actually ended up finishing BD on easy. Multi-stage end-bosses try my patience.
    JCServant wrote: »

    PS: I'm thinking a bit more about the idea of harder battles = more XP.

    The more I think about it, the more I think they should have built that in. How is having scaling rewards based on where that slider is that any different from a player going to an easier/harder area, seeking out easier/harder mobs and getting naturally smaller/larger rewards? Hmmmm...

    Well, it's not that different, but I think that getting more EXP from harder mobs can be a negative, too. If I wander off the beaten path, I might be rewarded (briefly) with an increased challenge level, but then I can end up being overlevelled when I return to the main path. It seriously waters down the dramatic tension when I can take out a boss without breaking a sweat.

    Personally, I like the idea of a deferred levelling system, like FFX's sphere grid. If you don't want your characters to get stronger yet, they don't have to; but all that EXP (AP?) is still collecting, so that you don't have to grind when you do decide it's time to level up.
    Only the livin' have the privilege of sayin' they'll fight ta the last breath.
    And words like conviction and resolve don't mean much to a dead man...
    --Raven (Tales of Vesperia)
  • DarkRPGMasterDarkRPGMaster A Witness to Destruction Moderators
    edited June 2014
    For you guys thinking more experience, gold, etc makes a harder difficulty easier, I have 3 words and a letter for you.

    TALES OF GRACES F

    That is all.
    "Yes, because apparently blindly jumping headfirst into a firefight without a grasp on the situation or any combat experience is a sign of genius these days."
  • Strawberry EggsStrawberry Eggs Hands off the parfait! Administrators
    edited June 2014
    Well, with the party at level 92, those Cerberuses can still kill a single character spamming brave. The whole party can take out a pack of three Cereberuses if at least one of them uses magic. I imagine at least two of those braving characters will die in the process. :P Man, those are some tough dogs.
    Bravely second...
    The courage to try again...

    Twitter: BerryEggs

  • ironmageironmage chaotic neutral observer SaskatoonFull Members
    edited June 2014
    For you guys thinking more experience, gold, etc makes a harder difficulty easier, I have 3 words and a letter for you.

    TALES OF GRACES F

    I actually didn't notice that Graces f gave you better rewards at higher difficulty. I was probably too busy fighting for my life. (My personal sweet spot was Evil, with occasional lapses to Hard. Chaos was... beyond my ability).

    But now that I think about it a bit more, I can see how an increase in XP gain might not actually make a game easier. If the increase in experience from playing at a harder difficulty is linear (say, +20%), but experience required to level up follows an exponential curve, then I think the net effect would be a positive (but bounded!) change in the player's level, relative to the current enemy levels. For example, playing on Hard might bring you X or so levels past where you would be at Normal, but this X level increase would be relatively constant, regardless of where you were in the game (all other things being equal).*

    If the improvement in character stats from those X levels is less that the increase in the enemy stats from the increased difficulty setting, then the net difficulty of the game would still be higher. Of course, all of this is highly dependent on the specifics of the game in question. If the experience increase was set too high, then the game could become easier, too. With no increase in experience gain, however, the increase in difficulty is guaranteed. I guess as long as I can get a decent challenge, the underlying mechanics don't matter too much.


    *(This is all just intuition. "More loop gain => smaller steady-state error", or something like that. I could attempt a proof, but I haven't done that sort of thing since college, and I'd probably just make a mess of it.)
    Only the livin' have the privilege of sayin' they'll fight ta the last breath.
    And words like conviction and resolve don't mean much to a dead man...
    --Raven (Tales of Vesperia)
  • DarkRPGMasterDarkRPGMaster A Witness to Destruction Moderators
    edited June 2014
    That's actually how it works for Tales of Graces F, ironmage. And it works well due to it, you're always challenged, always feel like you're fighting for your life.
    "Yes, because apparently blindly jumping headfirst into a firefight without a grasp on the situation or any combat experience is a sign of genius these days."
  • Rya_ReisenderRya_Reisender Solipsist Snowflake Full Members
    edited June 2014
    Higher difficulty should NEVER and I repeat NEVER have higher rewards except trophies and score. That's a golden game design rule. If anything, exp/jp should be higher on an easier difficulty (but that's also not the best way to implement difficulty either). Every good game designer should know that.
  • JCServantJCServant Certified Polygameist RPGamer Staff
    edited June 2014
    I don't know guys (those of you standing on the whole "harder should *never* equal better rewards soapbox). You still haven't answered my question.

    The more I think about it, the more I think they should have built that in. How is having scaling rewards based on where that slider is that any different from a player going to an easier/harder area, seeking out easier/harder mobs and getting naturally smaller/larger reward?

    And, let's admit it... how well a game rewards you in terms of that stuff is inversely proportioned to how much you grind to get to a certain level... in order to make other encounters (especially boss battles) easier. Really, that's what a lot of this comes down to. Few of us just play straight through never grinding. Even the more conservative in the group *will* stop to grind when they hit a difficulty spike or a tough boss. I have heard it said on these forums numerous times that the fact you can grind up to handle bosses easier is a staple characteristic of a jrpg. In essence, when you grind, you are making the game easier by leveling your characters higher. It's the power of choice in motion and can be found in even the oldest games that did not have the ability to have dialogue trees. In the old days (and maybe even today), developers made bosses tough on purpose knowing it would force players to grind as it padded game time.

    Unless the battle system is SUPER fun, grinding is something we do, but not something we really super enjoy. If it takes too long, many RPGamers will quit the game before they finish. Others will beat it, but that will be in spite of the forced grinding.

    So, it seems to be a to be a punishment if there's a difficulty option with no clear benefit of any kind. Since random battles will take longer (and in BD, they will take a LOT longer since you can't spam brave and 4x attacks), I'm spending more time in them. And for what? To say I played part of the game on hard? To prepare me mentally for tough boss battles? I dunno...it's just a disconnect for me.

    On top of that, it doesn't match the logic of the encounter slider. If you turn encounters up (which generally makes dungeons harder), you will generally earn more xp/gold/etc through more fighting. If you turn it down, dungeons will be a breeze. However, the game warns that if you do, you will not be leveled enough for bosses and required encounters. It would be interesting if the easy/hard slider kinda worked the same way.

    At the very least, imagine if it was like Diablo, and playing on hard gave you a better chance for rare drops. Something! RPGamers love carrots dangled in front of them! LOL

    Again, don't get me wrong. I love the game. I just try and force myself to ignore the evil little difficulty slider.
  • Severin MiraSeverin Mira News Director/Reviewer RPGamer Staff
    edited June 2014
    In principle I don't have any issue with numerical rewards, such as XP or cash, but if you combine that with the same encounter rate doesn't that defeat the purpose of a harder difficulty? You'll have done the same number of battles, it just took a bit longer, so at the same point in the game you'll have more XP or cash for better gear and thus make the latter portion of game, or just the boss fight at the end, easier. You could then argue what's the point of being a higher level as a result of playing on higher difficulty, which isn't exactly much different from saying "I played the game on a higher difficulty" anyway.

    The answer to that is more dependent on how deeply the difficulty levels have been set up to account for such things than apply in the general terms laid out, so it doesn't work too well as a general argument against and I stay with no general issue against it, but am also of the opinion to it not being there isn't an issue in itself either. :)

    Rewards such as "true endings" or more story content for higher difficulties can bugger off though :P
    "Time is an illusion. Lunchtime doubly so."
    Twitter: severinmira | Xbox Live: Severin Mira | PSN: severinmira (EU) | NNID: severinmira
    Final Fantasy XIV: Sevvi Taubemira (Leviathan)
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