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Round 2, Match 22: Grandia II - Winner (3) vs. Chrono Trigger (2)

JuMeSynJuMeSyn Code: KirinAdministrators
edited June 2014 in Battle Royale!
Match 22: Which battle system do you prefer?
Grandia II
Chrono Trigger

Well, we had a weeklong break from this affair, but let's get back in there swinging, as of 13 minutes past midnight on Monday morning, June 16 for the east coast!

Let's see. Paul, Mac, Johnathan, and me are arguing this particular round. We shall wrap up in roughly 48 hours!

We end about 7 minutes prior to midnight on the east coast, just because I couldn't guarantee free attention after midnight this time. Just before midnight on the 18th: closed.
It's not what he's eating, but what's eating him that makes it ... sort of interesting.
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Comments

  • TexsideTexside Member Full Members
    edited June 2014
    In Corner 1: a great big pile of gold that makes more gold but also boosts your self-esteem and makes a wicked omelette!

    In Corner 2: the physical manifestation of happiness! And it brings Christmas presents to you every week!
  • JuMeSynJuMeSyn Code: Kirin Administrators
    edited June 2014
    Ah, heck with it. It's on my mind and I wanna get this sucker out there.
    Chrono Trigger is great stuff, and I enjoyed the combat quite a bit. I'm sure others will chime in on its behalf soon.
    Grandia II though... is the kind of game where I actually sought out extra fights just because I wanted to wail on enemies some more. Which makes having them visible on the screen so I can get a first strike in quite handy.
    Now, for the uninitiated, I gather a little explanation is in order. All participants in the fight have an icon on a gauge that's on the screen somewhere near the bottom (I forget where precisely it is in II, and this is true for all the games in the series anyway). There's a spot at which everyone has to make a decision for what to do, followed by going through the gauge some more until reaching the end, at which point that decision is carried out. Once an enemy has made its decision, the next person taking action on the player's side who hits the point at which an action is decided gets to scroll around everything on the screen (this is turn-based after all). Odds are bad that every enemy can be countered by whatever you're able to do, but picking the enemy which is about to do the most dangerous action leads to you picking some kind of counter to it. Because some actions your characters can take will counter the enemy and make its action go back to the middle of the action gauge, without getting to do anything for a stretch longer. Enemies can do it to you too if you're careless though. Naturally there's a time component too, as winding up for a massive attack spell can take a bit. Also, being hit with an attack that doesn't cancel will still delay carrying it out for just a little while, as it interrupts the concentration.
    There's also a geographic component, though! Physical actions require the instigator to actually run across the field to deliver them, and if the intended target is also running it can take a fair amount of time to do it. Not until a lot of effort has been put into developing magical abilities will spells that hit everything be available, but most of them aren't single-target either. When everyone on the field can move around before the action is carried out, it makes figuring out where to center the spell pretty darn important.
    This Grandia carried a nice bunch of abilities that were specific to characters and spell 'eggs' that allowed swapping magical skills between people, with points earned from battle that went into enhancing the potency and speed of carrying out both things. That's just icing on the cake though. Grandia combat rocks.
    It's not what he's eating, but what's eating him that makes it ... sort of interesting.
  • Rya_ReisenderRya_Reisender Solipsist Snowflake Full Members
    edited June 2014
    I really like both battle systems. But the way Chrono Trigger does the encounters is just too good not to vote for it.

    Someone should combine those two battle systems. Basically Grandia but when you touch a monster instead of getting teleported, it will switch to combat mode and the ready gauge appears.
  • JCServantJCServant Certified Polygameist RPGamer Staff
    edited June 2014
    JuMeSyn wrote: »
    Ah, heck with it. It's on my mind and I wanna get this sucker out there.
    Chrono Trigger is great stuff, and I enjoyed the combat quite a bit. I'm sure others will chime in on its behalf soon.
    Grandia II though... is the kind of game where I actually sought out extra fights just because I wanted to wail on enemies some more. Which makes having them visible on the screen so I can get a first strike in quite handy.
    Now, for the uninitiated, I gather a little explanation is in order. All participants in the fight have an icon on a gauge that's on the screen somewhere near the bottom (I forget where precisely it is in II, and this is true for all the games in the series anyway). There's a spot at which everyone has to make a decision for what to do, followed by going through the gauge some more until reaching the end, at which point that decision is carried out. Once an enemy has made its decision, the next person taking action on the player's side who hits the point at which an action is decided gets to scroll around everything on the screen (this is turn-based after all). Odds are bad that every enemy can be countered by whatever you're able to do, but picking the enemy which is about to do the most dangerous action leads to you picking some kind of counter to it. Because some actions your characters can take will counter the enemy and make its action go back to the middle of the action gauge, without getting to do anything for a stretch longer. Enemies can do it to you too if you're careless though. Naturally there's a time component too, as winding up for a massive attack spell can take a bit. Also, being hit with an attack that doesn't cancel will still delay carrying it out for just a little while, as it interrupts the concentration.
    There's also a geographic component, though! Physical actions require the instigator to actually run across the field to deliver them, and if the intended target is also running it can take a fair amount of time to do it. Not until a lot of effort has been put into developing magical abilities will spells that hit everything be available, but most of them aren't single-target either. When everyone on the field can move around before the action is carried out, it makes figuring out where to center the spell pretty darn important.
    This Grandia carried a nice bunch of abilities that were specific to characters and spell 'eggs' that allowed swapping magical skills between people, with points earned from battle that went into enhancing the potency and speed of carrying out both things. That's just icing on the cake though. Grandia combat rocks.

    I'm 100% with my podcast partner on this one boys and girls. While I adore myself some Chrono Trigger, and consider it second only to FF6 in the 16 bit generation, Grandia is one of those games that I look for fights. As fun as CT's battle system is... I eventually got bored with it, and found myself rolling my eyes during some of the 'forced non-random battles' (You gotta love it when you can see the enemies, making you think you can get around them, but they jump out at you forcing you to fight). But Grandia? Zomg. It was a game that renewed my interest and faith in JRPGs. It showed me that after years and years of doing the same old boring turn based battles, that by making some small tweaks and additions to the way combat works, the sub-genre could feel completely new again. When I need a break from Dragon Quest/Warrior and Final Fantasy battle systems, I turn to games like Grandia II. A little bit of strategy (positioning and the oh-so-important action gauge) goes a LOOOONG way here. It's like peanut butter and jelly.
    I really like both battle systems. But the way Chrono Trigger does the encounters is just too good not to vote for it.

    Hopefully you voted for Breath of Fire: Dragon Quarter then :P It does CT's encounter system, but better :D

    Seriously though...while I'm ALL for removing random encounters and replacing it with just about any other system under the sun, I just don't think the encounter system in CT is THAT huge. Sure, its an improvement of just about anything else I played before it outside of Shining Force (I think having a game with all scripted encounters tied directly into the story is awesome). But, at the end of the day, ya still have to fight a bunch of battles. In JRPGs of this type, skipping too many battles, random or otherwise, throws you behind the leveling curve. So, I can see them ahead of time? Still gotta fight them. And then there's about a quarter or third of them which are unavoidable anyway (darn goblins in the bushes). I hate that one forest ya have to run through several times and you KNOW you're going to have to fight them goblins. Sigh. Anywho, I like it...again...better than random. I just don't think it's zomgIgottavoteforthisgameeverytimebecauseithasanonrandombattlesystem good. And, it could be argued that an 'encounter' system and not battle system. In Dragon Quarter, its much closer to a battle system since the traps and such you throw out before an encounter, and how you approach an enemy, has a direct impact on the ensuing fight.
    Co-Host on RPGBacktrack. Follow me on Twitter and sub to my blog if you would like!
  • Rya_ReisenderRya_Reisender Solipsist Snowflake Full Members
    edited June 2014
    Well apart from the fact that I never got past the second battle in Dragon Quarter (too hard), the encounters didn't seem very special. It's just touch the monster and battle begins like in all other boring RPGs.

    In Chrono Trigger there is a story behind every single encounter which makes it so amazing.
  • MacstormMacstorm Ysy St. Administrators
    edited June 2014
    Oh man, I'm in this round? Chrono vs. Grandia II? I don't even have to look at the reader poll to know where that one's going to end up. I'm going to have to really dig in, because I'm not decided on this one. Battles are fun in each of these games, and honestly, the specialness of battle encounters is not what I'm focusing on here. I'm looking at the battles themselves. Going to think on this one and read up.
    "The universe is already mad. Anything else would be redundant."
    Twitter @FinalMacstorm
  • Jmustang1968Jmustang1968 RPGamer Staff RPGamer Staff
    edited June 2014
    I am pretty sure I know where I am going on this one. Will most likely be the case where the game I vote for isnt as good overall but has a better battle system.
  • JCServantJCServant Certified Polygameist RPGamer Staff
    edited June 2014
    Well apart from the fact that I never got past the second battle in Dragon Quarter (too hard), the encounters didn't seem very special. It's just touch the monster and battle begins like in all other boring RPGs.

    In Chrono Trigger there is a story behind every single encounter which makes it so amazing.

    I don't know about a story behind every encounter, lol. Granted, they weren't random (but placed), but I don't recall each one having a story, par se. And, in CT, it's pretty much the same...touch a monster and battle begins. The biggest difference between the two is that the way you approach a monster and how you trap them before combat in DQ makes a difference in the fight itself. In CT, you just touch and fight. The initial position of monsters is set by the encounter, not how you approach the monster.

    We're getting off topic here, but I can't let this go....

    It completely baffles me how you can say this in one post...
    I really like both battle systems.
    and this in the next....
    I never got past the second battle in Dragon Quarter (too hard),

    Really? LOL. Stick a fork in me...I'm done. At least with this convo.
    Co-Host on RPGBacktrack. Follow me on Twitter and sub to my blog if you would like!
  • knownameknowname KnowJob, KnowClue Full Members
    edited June 2014
    ages agi I read a rant that said how stupid Mana Eggs were compaired to the old Grandia's lvl up system it's like 'here have a mana egg, everything will be ok now no matter that you never use this character it's all GRAND!'

    yeah, kinda ruined it for me. So if there's anything great about G2's battle system I didn't see it (mind you as a HUGE Grandia fan I played it and loved it... heck I even loved Grandia 3! Best theme song ever imo)
  • OcelotOcelot is not declawed RPGamer Staff
    edited June 2014
    Please note, in case earlier posts confuse the issue: This battle is Chrono Trigger v. Grandia II.

    I have no vote, but I'd probably lean towards Grandia II. Both battle systems are super fun, but I'm stubborn and think Chrono Trigger is a bit overrated. ;)
    Becky Cunningham, Staff-at-Large
    Twitter: BeckyCFreelance
  • knownameknowname KnowJob, KnowClue Full Members
    edited June 2014
    Yeah and I LOVED G2's CGs (BaBOOOOOOM!!!) they got annoying though as you could not skip them. But yeah, first and maybe only game I truly enjoy the CGs from even the basic fire spells!
  • InstaTrentInstaTrent Opinion Guy RPGamer Staff
    edited June 2014
    I love both of these series. Kind of hard comparing. Glad I'm not voting on this one. :)
    "To tell you the truth, I like drinking tea and eating fresh vegetables, but that doesn't fit with my super-cool attitude. I guess I have to accept this about myself."
  • Rya_ReisenderRya_Reisender Solipsist Snowflake Full Members
    edited June 2014
    @jcservant
    What Ocelot said. This is about Grandia 2 vs Chrono Trigger and I like both battle systems and have finished both games.
    You were the one who brought up Dragon Quarter. I really hate that game so I can't say much more about it.

    You don't really understand the beauty of Chrono Trigger encounters. It's not just touch the monster and battle begins. If you touch a monster there will be a small "scene" where monsters and characters get into position. And some scenes even have some comedy and twists added to them. Like the goblin throwing a stone at the sleeping big guy who then wakes up and joins him in combat.

    DQ is just over complicated and horribly implemented too (very very clunky).

    Grandia 2 is okay, but there's nothing special to the encounter, just touch and battle screen (well there is approach from behind, but that's also not that special as most games have that already).

    As for the combat itself, both Chrono Trigger and Grandia 2 are fast paced and fun, so I'd rate them equally high. So I the greatness of CTs encounter is what puts it above Grandia 2 in the end.

    Edit: Also the monster setup per encounter is really good in Chrono Trigger. There is hardly any monster combination (same type and amount) that appears in two different positions.
  • KeldarusKeldarus RPGamer Staff RPGamer Staff
    edited June 2014
    This is tough. Both battle systems are great. Granida's is super fun and fast paced with management of the enemies attack order and what skills they'll be using. Chrono Trigger has fantastic traditional ATB that plays fast and furious. This is really almost a tie for me because they're both a lot of fun to play. I picked up Grandia Xtreme just because the battle system is so much fun. I've played through Chrono Trigger countless times as well. Such a hard choice. ChronoGrandia2Trigger is my choice.. I'm going with Chrono Trigger because I like variable parties where I can play how I want and use different combat and combo abilities.

    -Kel
  • Jmustang1968Jmustang1968 RPGamer Staff RPGamer Staff
    edited June 2014
    Jume explained the mechanics well enough, so no need for me to reiterate.

    Overall, I think Chrono Trigger is the better game. It has a great cast, charm, and an engaging plot. To me, its battle system suffers from lack of challenge. It is way too easy and removed much of the need for strategic action as enemies didnt put up much of a fight. Grandia II battle system had that element of challenge. Its battle system really shined and is one of the few JRPG battle systems that really stands out on its own.

    Vote: Grandia II
  • Rya_ReisenderRya_Reisender Solipsist Snowflake Full Members
    edited June 2014
    Honestly I think both games are really easy. Where should that challenge in Grandia II be? I think I never died in that game at all and the only part I found challenging was the bonus dungeon.

    In Chrono Trigger there are a bunch of challenging battles for example that Mecha Dragon in the Prison, I died plenty of times there. There are a bunch of other battles where you might die because you just don't know the right tactic yet (or visit Lavos too early), but overall the game is also really easy. I wouldn't say it's easier than Grandia II, though.
  • ClephasClephas Member Full Members
    edited June 2014
    I've played both games... and if it was for overall enjoyability I'd choose Chrono Trigger. However, when it comes to battle systems, there literally hasn't been anything on the turn-based side that has even approached how delightfully strategic the Grandia series battle system was. I mean... having a battle system where survival was all about delaying the enemy's attempts to incinerate, amputate, and otherwise ruin your day while unleashing as much hellish damage as humanly possible was a huge difference from the ATB-variations that dominated at the time. Chrono Trigger's battle system was just ATB with being able to see the enemies beforehand tacked on as an afterthought. Moreover, even today most turn-based console role-playing games tend to be reliant on unleashing damage>heal from damage>rinse and repeat variations for boss battles and 'blast the enemy to hell with aoe' for mob battles. In Grandia and Grandia II, there was always a good chance you wouldn't survive long enough for your turn to come around again in a boss battle if you didn't sacrifice damage for delays in an enemy's own attack. That added an edge of excitement that similar rpgs at the time - and even today - really do lack.

    As for difficulty... there is no such thing as a hard Japanese turn-based role-playing game, there are just Japanese turn-based role-playing games where you didn't grind enough. Seriously. I've yet to meet a challenge in a game of the type outside of some of the SMT games where grinding a few levels wouldn't make things infinitely easier.
  • Rya_ReisenderRya_Reisender Solipsist Snowflake Full Members
    edited June 2014
    Grinding is a good mechanism to allow players to exchange skill with effort. It's sort of an automatic difficulty adjustment system.
    But that never means that the game is not hard. If you grind for 3 hours and then complain that the game is not challenging enough then you're doing it wrong.
  • Jmustang1968Jmustang1968 RPGamer Staff RPGamer Staff
    edited June 2014
    Employing strategic thought to defeat enemies is a form of challenge. Otherwise, there wouldnt be much thought or effort involved. CTs combat was just there because it was supposed to be there. It wasnt terrible it just wasnt great either.
    Grinding isnt necessarily always the answer if enemies scale, speaking in a general sense.
  • JCServantJCServant Certified Polygameist RPGamer Staff
    edited June 2014
    Clephas wrote: »
    As for difficulty... there is no such thing as a hard Japanese turn-based role-playing game, there are just Japanese turn-based role-playing games where you didn't grind enough. Seriously. I've yet to meet a challenge in a game of the type outside of some of the SMT games where grinding a few levels wouldn't make things infinitely easier.

    Indeed. I agree with ya here. I prefer RPGs where I don't become super uber with each level, but, rather, get more skills and choices, making the game deeper. Of course, I should get more HPs, attack str, etc...but it should be a slower progression. There was one pen and paper I played where a level 10 guy could get KO'd by two level one guys...because he got very little attribute increases at each level (mind you, cap is like 20th level). But, the level 10 guy did have more skills and the such so that, with thought, he could take out the level one guys. In the idea game, monsters and players would both see an increase of spells/skills/etc., thereby adding strategic depth to the game. Most RPGs do that...but do it with such number fluffing that, as you say, a few levels make it to where you can steamroll past stuff that really ruined your life before.
    Co-Host on RPGBacktrack. Follow me on Twitter and sub to my blog if you would like!
  • Rya_ReisenderRya_Reisender Solipsist Snowflake Full Members
    edited June 2014
    In Pen & Paper I generally feel like the progressing is pretty slow. Assuming DDO uses the real DnD ruleset, that means you start of with like 60 stat points and only gain up to 5 stat points total until max level (max level is 20 and you gain a stat point every 4 levels). So basically that hardly makes you stronger. You learn lots of new skills but that just allows you to do more stuff rather than doing stuff better.

    I once again can't agree with you, though. I really like it if leveling up makes you very significantly stronger, because that means you won't have to grind too long to make the game easier. I think the game that did this best is Ys. If you were on par with the enemies you didn't gain much exp anymore so you only leveled above any monster if you actually grinded a bit, but if you were just one level above the monster, you were like double as strong too. So the automatic difficulty adjustment depending on skill felt perfect in that game.

    You should really start to open up your own game design thread for discussions like this, though.

    Neither CT nor Grandia 2 require any grinding, they are easy by default.
  • MacstormMacstorm Ysy St. Administrators
    edited June 2014
    Two votes for Grandia II and one for Chrono Trigger...and the poll is likely going to CT. I guess that really does make me the tiebreaker this round. Hmm. :)
    "The universe is already mad. Anything else would be redundant."
    Twitter @FinalMacstorm
  • TheAnimeManTheAnimeMan Member Full Members
    edited June 2014
    Macstorm wrote: »
    Two votes for Grandia II and one for Chrono Trigger...and the poll is likely going to CT. I guess that really does make me the tiebreaker this round. Hmm. :)

    No pressure right
    sig.gif

    28 years of gaming and still going strong
    and now a mostly annoyed Father with first son. And now a father again to a second son :D

    Winner of the 2015-2016 Fantasy gaming Pool
  • OcelotOcelot is not declawed RPGamer Staff
    edited June 2014
    Macstorm wrote: »
    Two votes for Grandia II and one for Chrono Trigger...and the poll is likely going to CT. I guess that really does make me the tiebreaker this round. Hmm. :)

    I'm sure you'll make a grand decision, Mac.
    Becky Cunningham, Staff-at-Large
    Twitter: BeckyCFreelance
  • TexsideTexside Member Full Members
    edited June 2014
    Ocelot wrote: »
    I'm sure you'll make a grand decision, Mac.

    But I bet you're hoping he doesn't pull the trigger!

    I think I'd go with the grand decision myself here. Chrono Trigger was the better overall game, but what really sold me on it was the characters, the world, and the story. The systems were good -- they didn't get in the way, the dual and triple techs were fun but could get kinda old hat after awhile, the little minigames like the race and the fair and whatnot added variety -- but they didn't stand out like Grandia II's masterful battle system did. It was just top notch, leaving me constantly wanting more, and the variety was incredible.

    CT's the game I keep coming back to, but the battle system's just part of that equation. Grandia II, it was front and center.
  • MacstormMacstorm Ysy St. Administrators
    edited June 2014
    This is a tougher decision than I had thought it would be, mostly because neither battle system is a personal favorite. I feel like people have already touched on the highlights of both games already.

    Chrono Trigger is easily the more memorable game, but this isn't a nostalgia contest. On the other hand, the party variation that Kel talks about is also something to consider.

    Grandia II on the other hand is a blast to play and boasts one of my favorite characters in RPGs, Ryudo. But again, this isn't about the game's overall quality or about characters.

    Which to pick? Which to pick? After a lot of refreshers, I'm going with the one that I enjoyed fighting battles in the most.

    To quote Ryudo, "I'm sorry but that's not vague enough for me. Could you be a little less specific?" You want me to make a decision? OK, here you go.

    *summons Lavos*
    Attachment not found.



    Oh wait...*Ryudo attacks*
    Attachment not found.

    Vote: Grandia II
    "The universe is already mad. Anything else would be redundant."
    Twitter @FinalMacstorm
  • knownameknowname KnowJob, KnowClue Full Members
    edited June 2014
    Clephas wrote: »
    As for difficulty... there is no such thing as a hard Japanese turn-based role-playing game, there are just Japanese turn-based role-playing games where you didn't grind enough. Seriously. I've yet to meet a challenge in a game of the type outside of some of the SMT games where grinding a few levels wouldn't make things infinitely easier.

    Chrono Cross when you play against yourself? lolo
  • JuMeSynJuMeSyn Code: Kirin Administrators
    edited June 2014
    I've got the time right now, so let's close it a few minutes early.
    Chrono Trigger 185 60.26%
    Grandia II 122 39.74%
    Total Votes 307
    It's not what he's eating, but what's eating him that makes it ... sort of interesting.
  • TheAnimeManTheAnimeMan Member Full Members
    edited June 2014
    Mac your links don't work
    sig.gif

    28 years of gaming and still going strong
    and now a mostly annoyed Father with first son. And now a father again to a second son :D

    Winner of the 2015-2016 Fantasy gaming Pool
  • WheelsWheels RPGamer Staff RPGamer Staff
    edited June 2014
    DOWN GOES CHRONO TRIGGER

    d-lo-brown-european-champ-o.gif
    Ask Wheels- This Week's Episode
    sig.gif
This discussion has been closed.