If this is your first visit, be sure to check out the Forum Rules. You may have to register before you can post: click the register link above to proceed. To start viewing messages, select the forum that you want to visit from the selection below.
Welcome to RPGamer's new forums running under Vanilla Forums! If you're run into any odd or strange issues after our software migration please see this thread for details

Round 3, Match 26: Final Fantasy VI (2) vs Tales of Graces f - Winner (3)

2

Comments

  • daswhalebearddaswhalebeard New Member Full Members
    edited June 2014
    FFVI. No contest. :)
  • PawsPaws Purr RPGamer Staff
    edited June 2014
    Macstorm wrote: »
    Crap, I should have figured it would come to this. Bring it on, folks. Let me know which side to pick.

    I can't speak to Graces F, but FF6 all the way in my books. It's stood the test of time, had cool character stories, plus a bad guy EVERYONE knows. It's been out for nearly two decades and people still play it (heck, it's the finale for summer games done quick, where they plan to play it in like 6 hours, whaaaat?!).
    Specific to combat: They've struck a great balance between timely/meaninful random encounters and swag bosses. You can suplex a doomtrain. It has great customization that you can delve really deeply into, but you don't need it -- play the game the way YOU want. It has memorable characters that each have their own abilities. It was the pinnacle of the 4-5-6 ATB buildup. Other games still use its combat system as source and homage; being "a template" (which I would argue it isn't, really) is certainly not a strike against it.

    Will we still play Graces F in two years for its combat system? How about 20? FF6 has an amazing legacy, and it's battle system certainly contributes to its longevity. Do the right thing, vote FFVI!
  • JCServantJCServant Certified Polygameist RPGamer Staff
    edited June 2014
    You know, many people list VII as their favorite... as it introduced many to the series. The first RPG you play tends to hold a special place in anyone's heart, especially when its well done. However, for most who jumped into RPGaming before VII, VI is their favorite, and the sublime combat system is a big part of the reason. For me, I had played numerous, well done RPGs before it such as FFIV and Secret of Mana. VI had a lot going for it, including excellent visuals, musical score, memorable character and a wickedly fun villain. However, all of that would not mean a whole lot if its battle system wasn't equally as fun, diverse and entertaining, especially for me. I've been on records as saying that even if an RPG has all the other elements right, it fails (for me) if its combat system drops the ball. After all, I can read a good book and save myself a lot of time rather than play an RPG with a crappy combat system. Such is not the case with FFVI. Like a flood lamp turned on during the day, the combat system in FFVI may not shine as brightly since it doesn't contrast much against its other excellent parts, unlike Tales of Graces F (from what I'm reading above), but that doesn't mean that it doesn't shine brightly when pulled out on its own. It absolutely does.

    Oh... and what Paws said :)
    Co-Host on RPGBacktrack. Follow me on Twitter and sub to my blog if you would like!
  • DarkRPGMasterDarkRPGMaster A Witness to Destruction Moderators
    edited June 2014
    Paws wrote: »
    Will we still play Graces F in two years for its combat system? How about 20?
    Yes and yes. While FF6's main grace was the overall package of the game, with nothing really overwhelming the others in terms of goodness, Tales of Graces F is a classic just BECAUSE of the battles. All arguments have been made for FF6, but the main reason why I have to give it to Tales of Graces F is playing through Chaos mode. While other Tales games had more of a level/equipment requirement for doing really anything in the highest mode, Graces just has one rule on Chaos mode...play with skill. If you have the skill, you can make it through the game quite well. Here's an example of a difficult fight on Chaos mode (it's a skit battle, not really spoilerish).
    "Yes, because apparently blindly jumping headfirst into a firefight without a grasp on the situation or any combat experience is a sign of genius these days."
  • flamethrowerflamethrower Member Full Members
    edited June 2014
    FFVI. No contest. :)
    This post is content-free. Care to explain yourself?
    Paws wrote: »
    Will we still play Graces F in two years for its combat system? How about 20? FF6 has an amazing legacy, and it's battle system certainly contributes to its longevity.
    Who cares? Which one is best now?

    I personally like Graces better because the player is more active in battle than they are in FF6. It's not like you can plan your next move while waiting in FF6 either. They have given you something interesting to do (dodge/block) during your waiting time, and it applies even during your attacking time. The defending in Graces is quite good, much better than the simple timed button presses in Ar tonelico and Super Mario RPG. Honestly the attacking in Graces is more boring than the defending, as you're always aiming to execute "the combo."
    In Graces they have the arena mini-game which is pretty fun too. It uses the same system as the rest of the game in a 1 vs. all mode.

    The best argument I've seen against Graces is it doesn't do enough to help the player improve. I also have this problem with Demon's Souls. With Graces you can adjust the difficulty down if you're having trouble.
    Graces: So do you think that the boss fights are an example of trial-and-error gameplay? You enter battle, check weaknesses, probably lose, equip counter-skills, and then win. Am I the only one?

    The arguments given for FF6 make no sense. Characters are unique? Well, to a certain extent. Graces characters are more unique as they all have different skills and control differently. FF6 characters all have a personal skill, which is unique, and the magic skill. As the game moves forward, characters remain unique (they all have learned different magic), but it's because of your decisions and not because the characters themselves are unique. Also the personal skills get less useful as the game goes forward, I've found.

    JC: A lot of words, but at the end of the day, "it's sublime" are the words that talk about the actual FF6 system. It's balanced well definitely. Graces is balanced well too. I don't know what sublime means.
  • MacstormMacstorm Ysy St. Administrators
    edited June 2014
    This post is content-free. Care to explain yourself?
    It's a hatred for Graces f following a Twitter discussion we were having. :)
    "The universe is already mad. Anything else would be redundant."
    Twitter @FinalMacstorm
  • RewindRewind Member Full Members
    edited June 2014
    FF VI to me is a huge step back from IV and V in regards to combat. IV had characters with very specific roles that you had to learn to use effectively as the story progressed and your team changed, and V had this great deep job system that changed how battles played out depending on what current jobs and abilities you chose.

    VI though seems to be this hodgepodge of battle mechanics that just don't feel fleshed out. While the characters all have a different unique ability, I never once felt like the game made a compelling use of them like IV, IX, or even X. The magicite and relics allow you to customize characters, but I don't see them adding any real depth to combat like V's jobs or VII's materia. For me VI's combat just ends up being a bland ATB system with some buggy mechanics. I would like to say that I'm surprised it made it this far in the tournament, but it is Final Fantasy VI after all so I'm not.
    PSN: TLDragoon
  • JCServantJCServant Certified Polygameist RPGamer Staff
    edited June 2014
    JC: A lot of words, but at the end of the day, "it's sublime" are the words that talk about the actual FF6 system. It's balanced well definitely. Graces is balanced well too. I don't know what sublime means.

    I don't really dive into the specific mechanics since those have been talked about in detail already. And the other words DO talk about how awesome FF6's battle system...just not in the direct manner I presume that you prefer. As far as what Sublime means....

    "In aesthetics, the sublime (from the Latin sublīmis) is the quality of greatness, whether physical, moral, intellectual, metaphysical, aesthetic, spiritual or artistic. The term especially refers to a greatness beyond all possibility of calculation, measurement or imitation." :)

    As the game moves forward, characters remain unique (they all have learned different magic), but it's because of your decisions and not because the characters themselves are unique. Also the personal skills get less useful as the game goes forward, I've found.

    Indeed. I felt that the way I grew the characters (the decisions made) helped me feel more invested in the characters. In many JRPGs, you're given a group of characters and their role in the party is predetermined. Heck, how they grow can also be pre-determined. In FF6, you play a very direct role in how each character's combat ability grows, and what his/her job in fighting ends up becoming. Certainly some characters (and their abilities) lend themselves better to certain decisions (Terra was the best decision for teaching offensive magic thanks to how her ability develops), but, ultimately, it was up to you how they grew. As someone else posted earlier, it made random fights and the such feel more like training.

    For me VI's combat just ends up being a bland ATB system with some buggy mechanics. I would like to say that I'm surprised it made it this far in the tournament, but it is Final Fantasy VI after all so I'm not.
    Youza and ouchie. Having played all three (V most recently), I cannot agree. I do like all three of them overall, but I feel IV was the weakest. It was shorter than the others...yet when it was done, I felt that I had enough of the combat by that point. With the characters locked into their progression, more or less, and combat choices more limited, I didn't feel it was as compelling as V or VI.
    Co-Host on RPGBacktrack. Follow me on Twitter and sub to my blog if you would like!
  • 7thCircle7thCircle Proofer of the Realm RPGamer Staff
    edited June 2014
    Rewind wrote: »
    FF VI to me is a huge step back from IV and V in regards to combat. IV had characters with very specific roles that you had to learn to use effectively as the story progressed and your team changed, and V had this great deep job system that changed how battles played out depending on what current jobs and abilities you chose.

    VI though seems to be this hodgepodge of battle mechanics that just don't feel fleshed out. While the characters all have a different unique ability, I never once felt like the game made a compelling use of them like IV, IX, or even X. The magicite and relics allow you to customize characters, but I don't see them adding any real depth to combat like V's jobs or VII's materia. For me VI's combat just ends up being a bland ATB system with some buggy mechanics. I would like to say that I'm surprised it made it this far in the tournament, but it is Final Fantasy VI after all so I'm not.

    This is exactly what I think of FF6's combat system too, relative to other ATBs made by Square. FF6, just judging battles alone, wasn't the best FF on the SNES, much less the best RPG on the SNES or best RPG battle system today.

    But Mac knows this. He knows FF12 is a modern, improved, hands down better version of 4, 5, and 6's combat. And he's angry you people knocked it out of his Royale and the best revenge is killing Final Fantasy VI while he has the chance. KILL, MAC! KILL IT!
    The lesson here is that dreams inevitably lead to hideous implosions.
  • DarkRPGMasterDarkRPGMaster A Witness to Destruction Moderators
    edited June 2014
    The best argument I've seen against Graces is it doesn't do enough to help the player improve. I also have this problem with Demon's Souls. With Graces you can adjust the difficulty down if you're having trouble.
    Graces: So do you think that the boss fights are an example of trial-and-error gameplay? You enter battle, check weaknesses, probably lose, equip counter-skills, and then win. Am I the only one?
    It depends on the player really. For Graces F, if you're playing on Chaos mode and want to stay there, you have to get better. You start learning the ins and outs of each attack skill, which is good for what occasion, and start learning the weaknesses of the enemies and memorize them along with their moves so you know when to move and when to gun for the hit. As for the boss thing...you're right on that, it's kind of that way for the game, then again it's always been like that in a Tales game, regardless of difficulty.
    "Yes, because apparently blindly jumping headfirst into a firefight without a grasp on the situation or any combat experience is a sign of genius these days."
  • InstaTrentInstaTrent Opinion Guy RPGamer Staff
    edited June 2014
    I've said it before, but I think it's unfair to judge a game's battle system outside of its context.

    Comparing FFVI to later final fantasy games doesn't feel very fair to me. Systems are supposed to improve with time.
    "To tell you the truth, I like drinking tea and eating fresh vegetables, but that doesn't fit with my super-cool attitude. I guess I have to accept this about myself."
  • JormungandJormungand Member Full Members
    edited June 2014
    7thCircle wrote: »
    But Mac knows this. He knows FF12 is a modern, improved, hands down better version of 4, 5, and 6's combat. And he's angry you people knocked it out of his Royale and the best revenge is killing Final Fantasy VI while he has the chance.
    Actually, in this case, the best way to honor the tragically fallen FF12 is to vote for FF6. After all, the same person, Hiroyuki Ito, directed both games and, more specific to this topic, designed both games' battle systems.
  • Zeboyd GamesZeboyd Games Member Full Members
    edited June 2014
    InstaTrent wrote: »
    I've said it before, but I think it's unfair to judge a game's battle system outside of its context.

    Comparing FFVI to later final fantasy games doesn't feel very fair to me. Systems are supposed to improve with time.

    This isn't the "Best Battle System for its Time" battle royale.
    Check out upcoming RPG, Cosmic Star Heroine, at http://cosmicstarheroine.com/
  • 7thCircle7thCircle Proofer of the Realm RPGamer Staff
    edited June 2014
    Jormungand wrote: »
    Actually, in this case, the best way to honor the tragically fallen FF12 is to vote for FF6. After all, the same person, Hiroyuki Ito, directed both games and, more specific to this topic, designed both games' battle systems.

    Uh oh. That's actually a solid comeback. I'll have to figure out these moderator controls and delete what you wrote before Mac sees it.
    This might be a secret, but Mac has said before that he prefers FF4's battle system over FF6's. Maybe he needs to end his love affair with Ito and see him as the destroyer of FF4's amazing combat system.
    The lesson here is that dreams inevitably lead to hideous implosions.
  • RewindRewind Member Full Members
    edited June 2014
    Jormungand wrote: »
    Actually, in this case, the best way to honor the tragically fallen FF12 is to vote for FF6. After all, the same person, Hiroyuki Ito, directed both games and, more specific to this topic, designed both games' battle systems.

    Wow, he really creates some boring battle systems.

    Jmb77.gif

    Actually, I just wanted an excuse to post this gif. :playful:
    PSN: TLDragoon
  • PawsPaws Purr RPGamer Staff
    edited June 2014
    That is a pretty awesome GIF. I love the look on both of their faces.
  • daswhalebearddaswhalebeard New Member Full Members
    edited June 2014
    This post is content-free. Care to explain yourself?

    I didn't want to get into it because my opinion is extremely unpopular is Twitter is any indication, but sure :) I don't like the battle system of the Tales series in general, but Graces f was the worst to me. I found it unfocused and completely chaotic. Not my thing at all. FFVI is ATB, which isn't my favorite battle system but I do enjoy it a good bit. I like how you could play it as a standard turn-based RPG or you could mix it up if you felt like it with Gau's abilities and Sabin's moves, for example. So while neither are my favorite games, I rank FFVI almost infinitely higher.

    Sorry Wheels lol
  • TwinBahamutTwinBahamut Staff Healer RPGamer Staff
    edited June 2014
    InstaTrent wrote: »
    I've said it before, but I think it's unfair to judge a game's battle system outside of its context.

    Comparing FFVI to later final fantasy games doesn't feel very fair to me. Systems are supposed to improve with time.
    "Supposed to", sure, but I'm not sure that has actually happened. As far as I'm concerned, later games in the FF series don't really make a clear case for being absolute improvements. FF9, for example, is worse than FF6 in pretty much every respect. Its ATB mechanics, Trance gauge, and summons are deeply flawed in various ways, and its very long animations tend to make its problems worse. FF12 had the potential to be better, but it faltered for many of the same reasons FF9 did...

    People like to believe that the present is always superior to the past and that the new is superior to the old, but that is often not the case at all. Sometimes new things forget why things worked before, and simply perpetuate old mistakes while abandoning old successes. Quality is timeless precisely because advancement and improvement are not guaranteed.
  • MacstormMacstorm Ysy St. Administrators
    edited June 2014
    7thCircle wrote: »
    And he's angry you people knocked it out of his Royale and the best revenge is killing Final Fantasy VI while he has the chance. KILL, MAC! KILL IT!
    YOU PEOPLE? You egged it on. I should vote for FFVI just because you don't want me to.
    "The universe is already mad. Anything else would be redundant."
    Twitter @FinalMacstorm
  • MacstormMacstorm Ysy St. Administrators
    edited June 2014
    OK, time to vote. To help me decide, I hounded a ton of people on Twitter, which led to a lot of good discussion, but sadly didn't help bring me any closer to a decision.

    So I what I did was start up both games (the original FFVI on my RetroN 5) and Graces f on the PS3 and loaded up a few mid-game saves to fight a few battles.

    FFVI was first. I fought a few battles outside in the World of Ruin with a few of my favorites: Sabin, Edgar, Setzer, and Cyan. I remembered quite a few Blitz commands and had a good selection of tools. After a couple of those, I swapped to an earlier save right before Leo and Kefka's interaction. Which meant I had to watch that entire scene. This experiment just reminded me of exactly how much I love the characters in this game. FFVI is really a masterpiece with some of the best set pieces in gaming...at least for the World of Balance.

    I started up Graces f next and loaded a late game battle. At first I couldn't remember what in the world I was doing and almost died, but by the second battle I was back in the swing of things. I was in an annoying puzzle dungeon, so I ditched that save and loaded an earlier one in an open area. I fought quite a few battles and was doing pretty well. I wanted to load another save, but all of them were in that annoying dungeon and I had no interest in going back into that.

    This trip down memory lane really helped.
    I was reminded of how much I love FFVI's characters, but found that in most battles I was simply selecting fight and not using all the unique character skills I thought I remembered loving so much. Turns out very few of those skills were as useful in normal battles as I remembered. I found myself wanting to replay the game, but not for the battles. As for Tales of Graces f, I found myself only wanting to fight battles. I loved swapping around characters and just hacking things to pieces.

    Final Fantasy VI receives my vote...if this was a Best RPG competition. But it's not. Vote: Tales of Graces f
    "The universe is already mad. Anything else would be redundant."
    Twitter @FinalMacstorm
  • PawsPaws Purr RPGamer Staff
    edited June 2014
    Boo. Boo.

    [video=youtube_share;zod-xvs6i3s]
  • ShayminShaymin The Gratitude Pokemon Halifax, New SealandFull Members
    edited June 2014
    I have to say, that was a vote I wasn't expecting... but I think Mac pretty much summed it up there.

    Still, this was my reaction:
    Wrestlemania-30.jpg
    "The flowers all over its body burst into bloom if it is lovingly hugged and senses gratitude."
    Twitter | A gaming podcast by grownups | Nintendo World Report news editor
  • JuMeSynJuMeSyn Code: Kirin Administrators
    edited June 2014
    Odds of several dozen people rushing in to all vote one way and tip the result are very low. Therefore I'll draw this one to a close now.
    Final Fantasy VI 193 53.46%
    Tales of Graces f 168 46.54%
    Total Votes 361
    It's not what he's eating, but what's eating him that makes it ... sort of interesting.
  • DarkRPGMasterDarkRPGMaster A Witness to Destruction Moderators
    edited June 2014
    I knew you would understand Mac. I KNEW I COULD TRUST YOU.
    "Yes, because apparently blindly jumping headfirst into a firefight without a grasp on the situation or any combat experience is a sign of genius these days."
  • TheAnimeManTheAnimeMan Member Full Members
    edited June 2014
    I agree with Mac completely, although I love both games dearly FFVI has the better characters and story. But not Battles. Granted late game I usually used the same four characters (3 of which Mac was using) but for the most part specials fall off damage save for a few select ones. But Tales of Graces, despite being a complete silly game and one I enjoy for being a lighthearted title. Some of the interesting to watch battles I've ever had the enjoyment of watching an AI fight. Although I did find out I can still influence some abilities even though the AI is doing ym fighting

    That's another thing is that even wit hthe AI doing all my fighting, I could still hold buttons during certain combo's to pull off other attacks that were required button presses to achieve during certain combo points
    sig.gif

    28 years of gaming and still going strong
    and now a mostly annoyed Father with first son. And now a father again to a second son :D

    Winner of the 2015-2016 Fantasy gaming Pool
  • WheelsWheels RPGamer Staff RPGamer Staff
    edited June 2014
    Shaymin wrote: »
    I have to say, that was a vote I wasn't expecting... but I think Mac pretty much summed it up there.

    Still, this was my reaction:
    Wrestlemania-30.jpg

    paul-heyman.jpg

    YES! YES! YES!
    Ask Wheels- This Week's Episode
    sig.gif
  • AncientRuneAncientRune Member Full Members
    edited June 2014
    Wheels wrote: »
    paul-heyman.jpg

    YES! YES! YES!

    Knock Knock .... Mike Mike Lient BAAAAAAARRRRRRRRROOOOOOOOOCKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKK LEEEEEEEESSSNAAAAAAAAAARRRRRRRRRRRR conquered the streak

    just like Xenoblade will do to graces in the next round
  • MacstormMacstorm Ysy St. Administrators
    edited June 2014
    7th did make a good point about something I've talked with him about before, but I do much prefer FFIV's battle system to FFVI's. It's much simpler, but more tolerable in the long run.
    "The universe is already mad. Anything else would be redundant."
    Twitter @FinalMacstorm
  • WheelsWheels RPGamer Staff RPGamer Staff
    edited June 2014
    Macstorm wrote: »
    7th did make a good point about something I've talked with him about before, but I do much prefer FFIV's battle system to FFVI's. It's much simpler, but more tolerable in the long run.

    all I can say is

    yin-yang.jpg
    Ask Wheels- This Week's Episode
    sig.gif
  • MacstormMacstorm Ysy St. Administrators
    edited June 2014
    Wheels wrote: »
    all I can say is
    Don't make me have to swap my vote!
    "The universe is already mad. Anything else would be redundant."
    Twitter @FinalMacstorm
This discussion has been closed.