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Round 3, Match 27: Bravely Default (0) vs. Grandia II - Winner (5)

JuMeSynJuMeSyn Code: KirinAdministrators
edited July 2014 in Battle Royale!
Match 27: Which battle system do you prefer?
Bravely Default
Grandia II
This one begins slightly before midnight on the east coast as of Friday morning. How slightly before? About 7-8 minutes, depending upon clocks. It will end at the dawn of Monday!

I'm arguing this one with Becky, Paul, and Mr. Apps. Someone will take it first imminently, I'm sure!

Concluded as of... 11:53 in the east? Something like that, according to the forum clock.
It's not what he's eating, but what's eating him that makes it ... sort of interesting.
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Comments

  • Strawberry EggsStrawberry Eggs Wannabe Mistborn Lucario Administrators
    edited June 2014
    Once again, we've got a game whose battle system I adore against a game I've never played before.

    While it would be neat to see Bravely Default go on to the semi-finals, i imagine some people would see that as "new game hype". :P
    Bravely second...
    The courage to try again...

    Twitter: BerryEggs

  • Zeboyd GamesZeboyd Games Member Full Members
    edited June 2014
    I'm fine with either one of these winning. With that said, I found Bravely Default's combat really only shined in the boss battles with the regular battles being exercises in tedium since you could usually just spam Brave and win on turn 1. In contrast, combat in the Grandia series is fun even against regular enemies.
    Check out upcoming RPG, Cosmic Star Heroine, at http://cosmicstarheroine.com/
  • MacstormMacstorm Ysy St. Administrators
    edited June 2014
    Not voting here, but my support is behind Grandia II. Bravely Default had a fun job system, but my favorite part of the game was being able to SKIP battles, so...
    "The universe is already mad. Anything else would be redundant."
    Twitter @FinalMacstorm
  • JuMeSynJuMeSyn Code: Kirin Administrators
    edited June 2014
    Ah, Bravely Default. I did indeed enjoy fighting with you, but the speed of your encounters and certain unique mechanics (the song specials were something I'd never seen before, and rather cool) do not outweigh how I felt in regular encounters. I sped through them instead of savoring the joy of slaughtering my foes. My vote shall go ... to another!
    grandia2.jpg
    A visual aid will help as I speak on the subject this time.
    On the bottom of that Com meter are the three player characters. We can see that Ryudo has chosen an action but has yet to carry it out, the kid (his name is Roan, for whatever that's worth) is at the point where he'll choose what he's going to do, and Elena is coming up to where she'll make a choice.
    On the top we see the three Giant Mantis icons. One is carrying out an action right now, one is deciding what to do, and the third is a long way from being able to pick anything else - but it will.
    Based on the visual, it would appear that Roan is choosing a spell's epicenter. I can't tell from here whether it's harmful to the foe or helpful to the party, but this early it's probably a relatively weak attack spell. I think. At any rate, its range is fairly large, but those Mantis things might just run around before he can actually cast it, and the affected area will be completely different. The player has all the time in the world to plan this stuff out, but when a selection is made, everybody runs around the battlefield until it's time to choose an action again. Some actions affect a narrow line, others a small circle, and if the target is mobile then that's something you've gotta factor in.
    When Elena's turn comes up shortly, she'll have to decide what to do. Physical attack? Either way of physically attacking (not that she's the ideal person to do it) requires her to run around towards her target. Take too long with that (usually when the enemy is also running around) and the physical attack won't happen at all because the character presumably used up all his/her energy just chasing the target. So it's a critical choice. Or she could defend, which is often a good idea when the next enemy attack is coming your way and you don't have a way to preempt it. Defending happens almost instantly and makes the character ready to act again quickly.
    Ah yes, and the cancellation aspect. Even attacks that aren't specifically designed to cancel will delay taking action for a bit. This does makes sense, I would have a hard time casting a spell if someone was belting me upside the head with a weapon. Cancellation itself though - that sends the intended actor right back to the middle of the Wait bar, without getting to do anything! Wouldn't it be nice to constantly cancel an enemy's dangerous attack (which you can see the destination of)? Yes, yes it would. See that Mantis being targeted? Its action is something to do with Elena, probably a basic physical attack given the lack of further information. It might be too late to interrupt that action since Roan will have to sit there for a bit before his spell is cast, but the attempt is quite possible.
    Use this battle system and love it. I sure did. Grandia II, my support I give.
    It's not what he's eating, but what's eating him that makes it ... sort of interesting.
  • JCServantJCServant Certified Polygameist RPGamer Staff
    edited June 2014
    What Mike said. Go, go mighty Grandia II combat system!
    Co-Host on RPGBacktrack. Follow me on Twitter and sub to my blog if you would like!
  • TheAnimeManTheAnimeMan Member Full Members
    edited June 2014
    The thing I always liked about Grandia games is the ability to know how your AoE's will effect targets
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  • DarkRPGMasterDarkRPGMaster A Witness to Destruction Moderators
    edited June 2014
    JuMe has my thoughts on this covered.
    "Yes, because apparently blindly jumping headfirst into a firefight without a grasp on the situation or any combat experience is a sign of genius these days."
  • Rya_ReisenderRya_Reisender Solipsist Snowflake Full Members
    edited June 2014
    My vote also goes to Grandia II.

    I just like faster paced combat more.
  • flamethrowerflamethrower Member Full Members
    edited June 2014
    The thing I always liked about Grandia games is the ability to know how your AoE's will effect targets
    It shows the AOE, sure. But when ACT comes around, enemy positions are almost always different, leading to just as unpredictable results as before.
  • Rya_ReisenderRya_Reisender Solipsist Snowflake Full Members
    edited June 2014
    Well you can kind of predict movement, but yeah, it's quite a challenge to place an AoE right.
  • AncientRuneAncientRune Member Full Members
    edited June 2014
    I'm fine with either one of these winning. With that said, I found Bravely Default's combat really only shined in the boss battles with the regular battles being exercises in tedium since you could usually just spam Brave and win on turn 1. In contrast, combat in the Grandia series is fun even against regular enemies.

    This man knows, Grandia 2 all the way
  • JCServantJCServant Certified Polygameist RPGamer Staff
    edited June 2014
    The thing I always liked about Grandia games is the ability to know how your AoE's will effect targets
    The inability to see how AoE's will hit has always been a pet peeve of mine....

    It shows the AOE, sure. But when ACT comes around, enemy positions are almost always different, leading to just as unpredictable results as before.
    ... but this is normally a bigger pet peeve. It really made me cranky in the Baldur's Gate games.

    With that being said, I usually minimize that issue in Grandia by carefully choosing targets. In BG, everyone is constantly moving (unless they're engaged with my party in hand to hand. Even then, they can move at a moments notice). In Grandia, you have the ability to not only predict when the enemy will go, but to impact it, as well. It's not always that cut and dry (I might be able to delay the target mob while my spell casts, but the others around him might have turns), but at least you have a great idea of what the risks versus potential rewards are because of the action bar. Unlike BG. Evil combat engine!!
    Co-Host on RPGBacktrack. Follow me on Twitter and sub to my blog if you would like!
  • WheelsWheels RPGamer Staff RPGamer Staff
    edited June 2014
    While I've found Bravery Default's regular battles just fine (on hard), this is a no brainer for me. The battle system carries Grandia II and then some (not a fan of the characters or story). So rather than drag this out

    I vote Grandia II

    R.I.P. Takeshi Miyaji
    Ask Wheels- This Week's Episode
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  • AncientRuneAncientRune Member Full Members
    edited June 2014
    Wheels wrote: »
    While I've found Bravery Default's regular battles just fine (on hard), this is a no brainer for me. The battle system carries Grandia II and then some (not a fan of the characters or story). So rather than drag this out

    I vote Grandia II

    R.I.P. Takeshi Miyaji

    what you dont like Busty Redhead Demon girls
  • OcelotOcelot is not declawed RPGamer Staff
    edited June 2014
    I love both systems, so I'm still deciding. Begs, arguments, and bribes welcome. :D
    Becky Cunningham, Staff-at-Large
    Twitter: BeckyCFreelance
  • JCServantJCServant Certified Polygameist RPGamer Staff
    edited June 2014
    If early poll voting is any indication, it may already be a sealed deal.





    Grandia II
    39
    54.93%
    grey.gif


    Bravely Default
    32
    45.07%
    grey.gif


    Total Votes
    71



    Co-Host on RPGBacktrack. Follow me on Twitter and sub to my blog if you would like!
  • MacstormMacstorm Ysy St. Administrators
    edited June 2014
    Tales was leading the last poll at one point early on, so...
    "The universe is already mad. Anything else would be redundant."
    Twitter @FinalMacstorm
  • JCServantJCServant Certified Polygameist RPGamer Staff
    edited June 2014
    Awww...but Grandia II continues to pull further ahead. You can do it Grandia! You can doooo it!




    Grandia II
    44
    57.14%
    grey.gif


    Bravely Default
    33
    42.86%
    grey.gif


    Total Votes
    77



    Co-Host on RPGBacktrack. Follow me on Twitter and sub to my blog if you would like!
  • ClephasClephas Member Full Members
    edited June 2014
    I don't see why there should even be a contest here. In one corner you have the best turn-based jrpg battle system ever made... and in the other corner you have what amounts to a slightly modified version of the old FF battle system. To be blunt... considering Grandia II already beat out Chrono Trigger, whose battle system was obviously superior to Default, I don't see any reason whatsoever to even consider Default a potential winner.
  • 7thCircle7thCircle Proofer of the Realm RPGamer Staff
    edited June 2014
    Once again, we've got a game whose battle system I adore against a game I've never played before.

    While it would be neat to see Bravely Default go on to the semi-finals, i imagine some people would see that as "new game hype". :P

    Plus, if Bravely Default wins, there's a chance you might get another match-up where you've played both games and can have a staff vote in the final match.

    Of the 32 games in the Royale, there were only a few I hadn't played and don't intend to, but Grandia II is unique in that it was never on my radar. I didn't know people liked the battle system this much until this Royale, and in the 14 years since it came out, no one, EVER, as recommended it to me.

    So what gives? Did this game grow in the eyes of its fans just recently? Did I talk to the wrong people for 14 years? I recall that Grandia III was considered the best game in the series. Why is 2 here instead? The first time I heard nice things about Grandia, period, was when Penny Arcade 3 came out and people said as a positive that it was like Grandia's battle system.

    Over the years I've spent a lot of time looking into and then playing past games I missed, not to mention all my conversations with gamer friends, and I considered myself aware of every great RPG ever and this one heading to the top 4 best battle systems is coming out of nowhere for me.
    The lesson here is that dreams inevitably lead to hideous implosions.
  • PawsPaws Purr RPGamer Staff
    edited June 2014
    I also sort of wondered why Grandia was here. I played I, II, and Xtreme (which is by far my favourite), and my curiosity stems from the "mark" people have against FFVI -- the battle system itself isn't what made Grandia fun for me, it was a whole package experience. The combat system /is/ cool, but outside of the context of characters and story never struck me as strong.
  • TwinBahamutTwinBahamut Staff Healer RPGamer Staff
    edited June 2014
    Clephas wrote: »
    I don't see why there should even be a contest here. In one corner you have the best turn-based jrpg battle system ever made... and in the other corner you have what amounts to a slightly modified version of the old FF battle system. To be blunt... considering Grandia II already beat out Chrono Trigger, whose battle system was obviously superior to Default, I don't see any reason whatsoever to even consider Default a potential winner.
    I don't see how that is obvious at all... Care to elaborate?
  • JCServantJCServant Certified Polygameist RPGamer Staff
    edited June 2014
    7thCircle wrote: »
    Plus, if Bravely Default wins, there's a chance you might get another match-up where you've played both games and can have a staff vote in the final match.

    Of the 32 games in the Royale, there were only a few I hadn't played and don't intend to, but Grandia II is unique in that it was never on my radar. I didn't know people liked the battle system this much until this Royale, and in the 14 years since it came out, no one, EVER, as recommended it to me.

    So what gives? Did this game grow in the eyes of its fans just recently? Did I talk to the wrong people for 14 years? I recall that Grandia III was considered the best game in the series. Why is 2 here instead? The first time I heard nice things about Grandia, period, was when Penny Arcade 3 came out and people said as a positive that it was like Grandia's battle system.

    Over the years I've spent a lot of time looking into and then playing past games I missed, not to mention all my conversations with gamer friends, and I considered myself aware of every great RPG ever and this one heading to the top 4 best battle systems is coming out of nowhere for me.

    You know..that's why I love doing RPGBacktrack and why I love chatting on this site. Despite playing RPGs now for about 3 decades, I can chat with y'all and find out about games I never heard of before, or completely missed out on.

    Grandia was kinda easy to overlook because taken as a whole, it's not super awesome. I've forgotten about the story and the characters because they are mediocre (IMHO). Grandia III takes the battle system up another notch, but the writing goes down a point or two. Those RPGamers who focus more on story over gameplay will not be impressed.

    But I'm the opposite. I'd rather have a rockin' battle system any day over the other elements (of course, if I can have it all, awesome!). And Grandia's battle systems (I believe I've played 1-3) are just that memorable... Especially 3. But, again, you had to keep your eyes pretty open. The games didn't get a lot of press coverage, and, like you, I didn't have friends talking about these games at all. I read about the first one in a review... and since then, I've been hooked on the series. Thankfully, I was into Gamespot at the time, and they gave the first one a whopping 9.2/10. More importantly, the text made the battle system seem intriguing, so I grabbed it. I'm glad I did.

    The weaker elements keep me from whole heatedly recommending the series to all my friends. But for anyone who likes an original battle system with a good mix of strategy, but the accessibility generally attributed to JRPGs in general, Grandia fits the bill.
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  • flamethrowerflamethrower Member Full Members
    edited June 2014
    I don't see how that is obvious at all... Care to elaborate?
    1. Grandia > Chrono Trigger
    2. Chrono Trigger > Bravely Default
    3. (Therefore) Grandia > Bravely Default

    That (3) is true given the other two can't really be debated at all. (1) and (2) could be debated.
    (1) was extensively discussed in this thread here. Readers liked CT 60/40 over Grandia II; 3 out of 4 staffers liked Grandia II.
  • TexsideTexside Member Full Members
    edited June 2014
    This one is a toughie. I think...

    I liked Bravely Default -- indeed, I espoused its virtues last time -- but after ruminating a bit on it, Bravely Default could slow down. Grandia's battle system didn't.

    I'll have to go with it. But a bit reluctantly. Storywise, I'd pick BD. Heck, overall game quality wise... I'd have to pick BD.

    EDIT: to add...

    1. Grandia > Chrono Trigger
    2. Chrono Trigger > Bravely Default
    3. (Therefore) Grandia > Bravely Default

    That (3) is true given the other two can't really be debated at all. (1) and (2) could be debated.
    (1) was extensively discussed in this thread here.

    I think the other two can be debated, though, and that is indeed the point of this exercise?
  • ironmageironmage chaotic neutral observer SaskatoonFull Members
    edited June 2014
    1. Grandia > Chrono Trigger
    2. Chrono Trigger > Bravely Default
    3. (Therefore) Grandia > Bravely Default

    That (3) is true given the other two can't really be debated at all.

    On the contrary. That argument depends on an unproved (and possibly unprovable) assumption:
    4. Transitivity applies to battle system comparisons within the context of this Battle Royale.

    Since different people are voting for each match, the definition of ">" is not necessarily consistent from one case to the next. And even if it was, you could still end up with a variation on the classic RPS problem: paper > rock, and rock > scissors, but it does not follow that paper > scissors.

    Either way, I think the arguments leading up to the outcome are more interesting than the outcome itself. Systems should be compared to each other directly, not by using a third game as a reference point.
    Only the livin' have the privilege of sayin' they'll fight ta the last breath.
    And words like conviction and resolve don't mean much to a dead man...
    --Raven (Tales of Vesperia)
  • TwinBahamutTwinBahamut Staff Healer RPGamer Staff
    edited June 2014
    1. Grandia > Chrono Trigger
    2. Chrono Trigger > Bravely Default
    3. (Therefore) Grandia > Bravely Default

    That (3) is true given the other two can't really be debated at all. (1) and (2) could be debated.
    (1) was extensively discussed in this thread here. Readers liked CT 60/40 over Grandia II; 3 out of 4 staffers liked Grandia II.
    Well, this doesn't answer my question about why you think Chrono Trigger is "obviously" superior to Bravely Default. You haven't made any attempt to justify that, and I'm certainly not taking it as a given.
  • omegabyteomegabyte He's just this guy, you know? RPGamer Staff
    edited June 2014
    Wheels wrote: »
    While I've found Bravery Default's regular battles just fine (on hard), this is a no brainer for me. The battle system carries Grandia II and then some (not a fan of the characters or story). So rather than drag this out

    I vote Grandia II

    R.I.P. Takeshi Miyaji

    Mrgrgr...............................................
    God's Final Message to His creation, written in thirty-foot high letters of fire on the side of the Quentulus Quazgar Mountains:
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  • PimpaliciousPimpalicious Member Full Members
    edited June 2014
    7thCircle wrote: »
    So what gives? Did this game grow in the eyes of its fans just recently? Did I talk to the wrong people for 14 years? I recall that Grandia III was considered the best game in the series. Why is 2 here instead?

    Yes, you have. :P
    Grandia is pretty split as favorites in the series. Story and character gets worse with each new installment but the battle system gets improved with each one also. Overall my favorite is the first one, but 3 has the best battle system.
  • MacstormMacstorm Ysy St. Administrators
    edited June 2014
    Grandia II only made it in over III due to reach. More had played it than III.
    "The universe is already mad. Anything else would be redundant."
    Twitter @FinalMacstorm
This discussion has been closed.