If this is your first visit, be sure to check out the Forum Rules. You may have to register before you can post: click the register link above to proceed. To start viewing messages, select the forum that you want to visit from the selection below.
Welcome to RPGamer's new forums running under Vanilla Forums! If you're run into any odd or strange issues after our software migration please see this thread for details

RPGCast - Episode 398: "I Think You Mean Seven...?"

sabin1001sabin1001 Man vs. Slime, the fourth type of conflictMadison, WIAdministrators
RPGCast - Episode 398: "I Think You Mean Seven...?"

Today's podcast has a feline bend, but we still aren't the official Cat Fancy podcast. The full crew is here today with tons of games, tons of news, and tons of ERROR: NON-CAPCOM SOFTWARE DETECTED. PLEASE INSERT STREET FIGHTER V DISC TO REINSTALL PC AND CONTINUE.

You can find the show notes here: https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1hLXOun1ZxUP6E_vRgsLTdrSzy7q-h4iCHJt3EDYuKRs/edit?usp=sharing

RPGCast streams live on Saturday at Noon Eastern / 9 AM Pacific.

Leave your feedback in the following ways!
Post in this thread.
Email us at podcast@rpgamer.com
Leave us a voicemail at (608) 729-4098
Email us an mp3 or m4a voicemail at podcast@rpgamer.com

Download the show: "I Think You Mean Seven...?"
Subscribe to the feed: http://feeds2.feedburner.com/Rpgcast
Subscribe in iTunes: http://itunes.apple.com/WebObjects/MZStore.woa/wa/viewPodcast?id=264306390

Question of the Week:
Are you putting games on your wishlist? If so, which ones?
179811.png

Comments

  • smacdsmacd Full Members
    So regarding the SMT4:A QA issue with the unlocalized text in conditional situations- while I really want to give Atlus the benefit of the doubt here, I really have a problem with their claim that their QA staff has just become "too good" at SMT games after being around for so long. The goal of QA is to functionally test everything, not to finish it efficiently. As someone who has done some software QA work over the years, that excuse from Atlus tells me that they have a QA team that doesn't understand what their job is.

    That said, I've also spent a lot of time as a programmer, and Anna's point about last minute code making it in is true, but lets also keep in mind that the QA team is likely black box testing either way- so they shouldn't know any details regarding conditional code but they should be finding it anyway if they are doing their jobs.

    In the end though, QA testing is difficult (especially if they aren't white box testing), and its not at all surprising that the QA guys didn't get anywhere near 100% coverage testing. Full coverage is very, very rare in any software QA (virtually impossible on any non-trivial sized project). It's not so much that they happened to not find this, as much as Atlus stating that they are "too good" at the games now that bugs me.
  • null001null001 Banned Users
    That SF5 Ryutkit thing was unreal. Makes me wonder why I play this game...
  • PawsPaws Purr RPGamer Staff
    smacd wrote: »
    That said, I've also spent a lot of time as a programmer, and Anna's point about last minute code making it in is true, but lets also keep in mind that the QA team is likely black box testing either way- so they shouldn't know any details regarding conditional code but they should be finding it anyway if they are doing their jobs.

    When I was QAing a game recently, I ran into a bug nobody else had -- it involved picking up an item, going across the entire in-game world, and talking to a specific person. Chances of someone doing that in the real game? Pretty slim. It was ridiculous I caught it at all. So while I think saying they're 'too good' is a bit tongue in cheek and can come across as arrogant, I can understand why this very specific instance (leaving a key character dead for multiple turns) could be missed, especially if it's not in the script file. It's easy to get tunnel vision when you're assigned to QA a specific part of the game ("Hey, do all the marriage events work with this person?") and play the game like a consumer might ("Can I woo EVERYONE ALL THE TIME?!") ;)
    Atlus is lucky they're working with their own game and can potentially fix it -- a title I worked on a few years ago has a code string come up in a regularly encountered conversation. It was flagged to be changed numerous times (like 5 or 6 revisions) yet made it into the final game, and was never fixed by the original developers despite requests to do so.

  • Lord GolbezLord Golbez Member Full Members
    edited September 2016
    What was that about Case 4 "definitely" mattering to the rest of the story? Case 4 had zero connection to the rest of the story. I enjoyed it better than some of the others (some of which seemed too long), but it definitely doesn't matter to the rest of the story. If Case 4 was omitted from the game, they wouldn't need to change so much as a single line of dialogue in any other case. There's no way to matter less. Actually, most of what made the other cases too long was unskippable extremely excessive flashbacks (case 5 flashbacks to the same scene at least 3 times, twice within a few minutes of each other) and unskippable extremely slow dialogue (one particular witness in case 1, especially). Those are issues that were a bit inexcusable.
    The Tea and Biscuits Brigade offers you tea and biscuits.
  • ShayminShaymin The Gratitude Pokemon Halifax, New SealandFull Members
    Wondering if the other game Anna mentioned was Ar Tonelico 2, where a bad string caused a hard lock if the final boss used a particular attack at ultra-low health in the NA version.
    "The flowers all over its body burst into bloom if it is lovingly hugged and senses gratitude."
    Twitter | A gaming podcast by grownups | Nintendo World Report news editor
  • 7thCircle7thCircle Proofer of the Realm RPGamer Staff
    edited September 2016
    smacd wrote: »
    So regarding the SMT4:A QA issue with the unlocalized text in conditional situations- while I really want to give Atlus the benefit of the doubt here, I really have a problem with their claim that their QA staff has just become "too good" at SMT games after being around for so long. The goal of QA is to functionally test everything, not to finish it efficiently. As someone who has done some software QA work over the years, that excuse from Atlus tells me that they have a QA team that doesn't understand what their job is.

    It's not so much that they happened to not find this, as much as Atlus stating that they are "too good" at the games now that bugs me.

    You and I come from worlds where QA testing is highly technical. I'm a QA tester in IT. As part of my testing I open code, read it, find conditionals in the logic, and make sure everything will work as per the requirements. Just last week a developer wasn't able to push his completed code into the test environment due to a DBA being on vacation. To get some work done, I read his code in the dev environment and found 2 major bugs just from reading it. I hate it when a developer forces a black box on me because that doesn't let me add as much value as I'm capable of. I have that issue with a different developer I work with now, and not surprisingly, his code runs into bugs in higher environments more often when it hits odd conditionals in production data.

    Gameplay QA isn't technical. They play the game and try to guess what will break it. The issue, in my opinion, is that Atlus's QA testers need the technical skills to look at the code and search for issues that way. If they see paths, they can test them in addition to doing whatever random stuff they do when looking for bugs. Without it, they're going to miss odd things like this. Atlus isn't running a multi-million dollar IT department with the time and resources for this type of testing. Unless you want localized games to cost twice as much and release several months later, that's a good thing.

    I don't think the Atlus line that bugged you was meant to be taken seriously. It's a cute quip meant to be funny. The real problem is inherent to black box testing and I would assume they know that, and know it's a risk in their business. Or it's the Japanese dev's responsibility to point out scenarios like this, and they're being good corporate friends and not throwing them under the bus.
    The lesson here is that dreams inevitably lead to hideous implosions.
  • smacdsmacd Full Members
    edited September 2016
    Definitely some fair points. I don't think I approach reading PR comments on twitter from the point of view that they are trying to be humorous about some things, even when most of the rest of their comments are. It probably is my mistake for taking the comment too seriously. I mean, I'm probably famous for defending Bethesda for their QA misses. Actually I'm not even sure if it bothered me when I read the actually tweet they sent about it, or after I'd read the story on several websites and heard it on several podcasts. And honestly, making jokes out of things is how I tend to handle stress. Perhaps I just needed to be reminded that it was probably a joke

  • WheelsWheels RPGamer Staff RPGamer Staff
    Moral of the story: QA is an extremely under appreciated aspect of software development, especially considering we usually only get recognized for MISSED issues.

    The next time you play a nicely bug free game, thank some QA professionals
    Ask Wheels- This Week's Episode
    sig.gif
  • Lord GolbezLord Golbez Member Full Members
    It seems a bit much to dump all the problems at the feet of QA testers. Yes, it's their job to find the problems. It's also the job of the coders to make good code in the first place and translaters should be translating everything. I understand that they wouldn't have QA positions if the former people were infallible, but it's ridiculous to hold QA professionals to that standard either. They're no more to blame than the rest of the team for the problem. Also, I'm less concerned about the comments they made about the problem jokingly or otherwise and more concerned about their lack of drive to fix the issue.
    The Tea and Biscuits Brigade offers you tea and biscuits.
  • Strawberry EggsStrawberry Eggs Wannabe Mistborn Lucario Administrators
    I'm not at all harping on Atlus for missing this untranslated dialogue, but it is kind of funny that the first instance I saw of them missing a line of Japanese was in another MegaTen game. In Devil Survivor Overclocked, if you go through the Yuzu Route's 8th Day chapter, the last boss is a powered-up Belberith. He says a line of text during the fight that is untranslated.
    Bravely second...
    The courage to try again...

    Twitter: BerryEggs

  • smacdsmacd Full Members
    QA is definitely under-appreciated, not just by consumers, but by companies themselves usually. Not everyone treats them like Nintendo does. The QA group I currently work with is chronically understaffed, underfunded, and overworked; its amazing we manage to have so few customer found defects to be honest. And I can't tell you just how many times I find bugs that the devs are simply unwilling to fix. I don't see how QA often doesn't have more control and the ability to stop a product from going out.

    Oh hey, there was a question of the week. Regarding wishlists, I keep a PSN, GOG, Steam, Google Play, Rockband Music Store, and Amazon wishlist to track all of the games/DLC I want (I wish there was a better way to wishlist on XBLA). But its generally for me and for waiting for sales to buy stuff. Steam, GOG and Amazon are generally public, but I think someone has only gifted me anything from any of them once or twice ever. I don't really ask for much though so yeah.
  • BudaiBudai Paladin Full Members
    It doesn't bother me at all. Things happen.
  • CavalierCavalier New Member Full Members
    Spooky coincidence.

    Just playing Persona 3 Portable and am at the sports event on August 8th.

    Told my team mates to "Root for me" and I received a special drink and a line of Japanese text.

    I blame Chris :)
Sign In or Register to comment.