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Editorials - Every Day is a Carnival

Joseph WithamJoseph Witham MemberFull Members
edited July 2003 in Latest Updates
A few less submissions this week, but still enough to have something to talk about.

Read them here.

Comments

  • twentytwotwentytwo Member Full Members
    edited July 2003
    Clich??s - Good, Bad, or the Only Option

    confused.gif

    The problem with your idea of a new concepts is that once a new idea is used a couple of times, it becomes a cliche. For instance, the idea that the villian is really your father is considered a horrific cliche (even though the idea is supposedly taken from Star Wars, it was based off of something called the Hero's Journey that was devised by Joseph Campbell who was consulted for the movie, and was thus already cliche in common myth and folklore).

    The problem isn't coming up with new ideas. The problem that most writers, including myself, are facing is that there really is no way to uncliche something once it has been put in that category. The ideas, in and of themselves, are very good ones and should be used to tell a good story, but the problem is that what's good to one person is probubly good to many others, and hence a cliche is born. But the death of a cliche only happens when the stories dissappear, which would take many many years... (people are still watching Star Wars... I don't think I'll live long enough to see "[name]... I am your father!!" get uncliched)

    You did suggest an alternative, but as soon as that's done, it'll be cliched. Even the idea of robots coming from the future to change the past is cliche and its only been done a couple of times (if you count the whole Terminator series as one).

    In Japan, they discovered that every year there is a new set of faces who hasn't been exposed to the stories of the past year and thus they devised the Brave Saga, which is one of the longest running Sentai (like Power Rangers or Ultraman) series ever devised. Every generation has their first crush, their first betrayal, their first super hero who must hide his identity... to those youth the stories are not cliche. So even though you may be seeking games that never use the same ideas over again, there will always be those who have never seen what you have seen and so they will make something you've already seen (the next generation of game designers will reuse the ideas of the past because to them they are new and untapped).

    biggrin.gif

    As for me, I'll just tell the story I want to tell, cliche or not...

    If you like it, good. If you don't, ah well...

    -22

    *******

    "If an alien saucer were to appear playing music entitled 'love and peace' with a big peace symbol and as it landed an alien came out, walked up to a police officer, and pulled out a fountain of youth and disease curing gun blaster, it would be shot dead." ~22

    "If there were aliens, they're probubly dead now." ~22
  • LordBrianLordBrian Member Full Members
    edited July 2003
    </span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td class="QUOTE"You did suggest an alternative, but as soon as that's done, it'll be cliched.[/QUOTE]<span id='postcolor'>

    Just as a minor point of contention, something can't really be considered a clich? the first time it's done.
  • minneyarminneyar Member Full Members
    edited July 2003
    While I thought both of today editorials had some good points, the one on Luca Blight could've used some more work; in particular, the grammar and sentence structure are weak in a few areas, and he makes several statements that he doesn't back up.

    An example of both of these situations is the final list at the end; can you really look at "If you've play FF7 and don't know why he's here, you're and idiot." and not grimace? ?It's possible that the grammar mistakes are intentional here and meant to reinforce his point, but he gives no indication.

    I don't think the list at the end helped the editorial in any way, and on top of that, it's not a good idea to insult the reader at the end; personally, I don't feel that Sephiroth was that great of a villain. ?Rather than the editorial causing me to think "Yeah, Luca was a really great villain," my parting thought is, "Yeah, same to you."

    The reviewer also completely ignores the fact that Luca was "<span class="spoiler">under the control of the Beast Rune, and, furthermore, was not killed by the archers -- after being turned into a human pincushion, he still managed to duel the main character before dying</span>".
  • Daemonic_AngelDaemonic_Angel Member Full Members
    edited July 2003
    </span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (Minneyar @ July 08 2003,00:38)</td></tr><tr><td class="QUOTE"While I thought both of today editorials had some good points, the one on Luca Blight could've used some more work; in particular, the grammar and sentence structure are weak in a few areas, and he makes several statements that he doesn't back up.

    An example of both of these situations is the final list at the end; can you really look at "If you've play FF7 and don't know why he's here, you're and idiot." and not grimace? ?It's possible that the grammar mistakes are intentional here and meant to reinforce his point, but he gives no indication.

    I don't think the list at the end helped the editorial in any way, and on top of that, it's not a good idea to insult the reader at the end; personally, I don't feel that Sephiroth was that great of a villain. ?Rather than the editorial causing me to think "Yeah, Luca was a really great villain," my parting thought is, "Yeah, same to you."

    The reviewer also completely ignores the fact that Luca was "<span class="spoiler">under the control of the Beast Rune, and, furthermore, was not killed by the archers -- after being turned into a human pincushion, he still managed to duel the main character before dying</span>".[/QUOTE]<span id='postcolor'>
    I got one thing to say bout that BURN!!!!!!!!!!!!!
    sorry Bobby

    "<span class="spoiler">Leon Silverburg is the one who finally summoned the Beast rune with his own blood not luca as stated in the editorial</span>"

    and although I think Luca is one of the Top 5, I dont think he is #1, sure he is stronger than hell but "<span class="spoiler">he is INSANE and that was his Down fall that and his pig-headedness. If he opened his eyes when his father died he would have been more cautious around Joey, Joei,or however you want to spell it. I think the final boss of the Arc The Lad Series is #1 He almost destroied the Planet but he didnt, He just changed it ...Not like Kefka...In fact Kefka could take a lessen or two </span>"



  • DracosDracos Member Full Members
    edited July 2003
    Hum, the luca blight editorial is incredibly fanboyish, even if I do agree with the sentiment that Luca Blight is a remarkable villian. Outside of that though, I think qualitatively marking a 'list' of villain rankings is a touch drab. It really doesn't end up saying anything besides what affected the writer a lot. There really isn't much for discussion there because it's like ranking who is the best athelete in the world by taking just the top stars of different sports and then picking your favorite. Without them in competition to each other directly, it means not a thing.

    As far as the cliche bit goes, yeah, I happen to be one of those who tends to like 'classic' thought paths. Of course, I don't believe everything is played out in the sun and have no problem with new stuff either. I tend to find the emotion and effort tends to dictate whether a piece comes across as touching, moreso than the originality of certain devices.

    Dracos
  • DracosDracos Member Full Members
    edited July 2003
    You know, twenty raises quite a point there. I'm going to pull into relation here my experiences in a fanficdom going over how things get to be viewed 'cliche' there and the problems with it. A great deal of 'cliches' not only are rarely done but haven't seen anything written on them in years. In fact, the quickest way it seems to ensure no one ever writes anything using that plot is to take one fic and accuse so and so plot device of being cliche. It'll never be seen again. There was one pair of fics written oh five-six years ago and since then the index of every fic in the fanficdom hasn't seen a single other fic using that plot device...yet it's seen roughly a hundred separate ones all using the same 'counter-cliche' device. : \ While I don't think Game design suffers from this as much, instead having quite a few cliches about, I do think a lot of them are overspoken simply as one or two games have done them remarkably well. I wonder, what really IS the count on games that have the best friend both around and betraying the hero. Sure, I can remember FF 4 doing this... at the same time I can remember quite a few others where that never happens or there isn't even a best friend around. I'm playing Arc 2 now and I'd be damned surprised if Shu turned on Elc any time during the series. And I sure remember this being tossed about as an overused and expected cliche.

    Really, I think the idea that there is nothing new to write or that the same old cliche can't be given in a powerful or evokative way worth giving is a silly one. I tend to find it regularly tossed my way right before or after hearing a twist on a tale I'd never thought of or heard of before.

    Dracos
  • SpideySpidey Member Full Members
    edited July 2003
    Wow, not many editorials this week. That's fine though smile.gif Guess I'm being spoiled now.

    I really liked the editorial on cliches. Personally, story cliches don't bother me as much as gameplay cliches. As long as I see innovations and new ideas in gameplay, I'm fine with seeing similar stories pop over and over again, because there are so many stories told in this world it's nearly impossible coming up with something many people won't deem as "cliche". However, if a game uses a lot of cliches, even gameplay ones, and it's still fun to play, I couldn't care less that it's cliched. A fun game is a fun game, period. What I mean is I dont dislike cliches themselves just because there cliches, I will only dislike them if they start preventing my enjoyment of games, and so far, even after 12-13 years of playing video games and RPGs, it's not the cliches themselves that bother me, it's only if the cliches result in a bad/not fun game. If the cliches result in a fun game, i Love them. Because it can go both ways, I see no reason to fault them, it's just up to how the game designer uses them.

    For example, Wild Arms 3 , the game i'm playing right now, has an abundance of cliches. However the game is so fun and the story is very entertaining, I really dont care about these cliches. The game does have a lot of unqiue stuff. I think another thing is that as long as a game isn't 100% cliches, even if it contains a lot, those cliches were familiar with and have enjoyed before mixed with new fun things brings a very enjoyable experience. Hey, at least to me.

    But when someone says "Oh! That game has a sword in it! TOO CLICHED" that's just going way too far.

    BTW Dracos, I know this is out of topic, but I didn't realize you were a programmer at once, so what I said about youre guesses and etc being as good as mine was completely wrong, I have to level with ya there smile.gif



  • AimeeKaeAimeeKae New Member Full Members
    edited July 2003
    I adore game villains. My favorite games are always the ones in which the villain is my favorite character. For me, though, villains are more memorable when they aren't pure evil. It seems to add an extra level of threat to the villain when you can see that s/he's not actually a bad person (it makes him/her a little harder to want to kill). It doesn't excuse the villain's actions, but I do think a little sympathy helps to make a villain more memorable. I'll always favor villains like "<span class="spoiler">Krelian and Ghaleon</span>"(Xenogears and LunarSSSC) over "<span class="spoiler">Kefka</span>"(FF6). I like my villains to be bad, but not pure evil. Maybe that's just me.
  • hlhsquallsionhlhsquallsion Member Full Members
    edited July 2003
    Whoo-hoo! not too many editorials here this time! i can give my head a little rest.

    "oh that is SSSOOOO cliche!" how many times have we heard that? too many times, in my lifetime. but we can't prevent it. as the editorial said, cliches are used to be "familiar" to the audience (gamers) or just as a way to compensate for lack of originality (i think that's what the editorial said...) frankly, i don't care about cliches when they aren't "right in your face". like spidey said, cliches shouldn't bother anyone if they don't impede the gameplay and story too much.

    however, as a whole, i don't like cliches, because they make me let out a disgusted moan or an "oh my god this is LAME!" and chuckle of surrender (i.e. *SOB*). i do notice that they DO make some concepts of story and gameplay "familiar" to players, and many of them are successful because people can pick up a controller or keyboard and dive right in. some, of course, want a challenge of "learning as they go", like me, and they seek something fresh and original. however, nowadays, what i percieve as "original" is different from i would have said years ago. now that i see "CLICHE" everywhere, i came to accept that "original" is what is known as a cliche, but modifying it so that it bring new emotions and twists to the frontline. let's face it, it's hard to think of something completely original these days, because we are raised on these "cliches" when we are kids, and so they burrow into our minds and become a part of our imaginations. and so when we make up a story or concept, these cliches surface. also when we THINK we got something that's not a cliche, it may have existed in the past.?

    what we need are twists to stories, so that on the surface they may be cliches, but down below there are unexpected turn-arounds just waiting to pop out. as for gameplay... that's a lot harder to do, because everything has to be well-balanced in order for a game to succeed, and if even one little bloop surfaces, it may destroy the whole game.

    but as soon as an innovative plot comes around, i'll bet that soon, many other companies will pounce on it, thinking they can get some extra dough on this "NEW!" thing, and after time, it becomes a cliche. that's life, i guess.

    regarding the villains editorial, i think the author should REALLY define what a "greatest villain" is in his mind, and watch what he's saying at the end. (i can't believe his editorial actually got accepted.) we all have different opinions about what qualifys what, and to flat-out say "i'm the best" or "he's the best" without any strong evidence is purely...um... egotistic? i don't know the right word for this situation. but that little thing about being an "idiot" about Sephiroth is disgustingly CRUEL. is he assuming that EVERYONE have, or should, play FFVII? look who's the "idiot"...



  • pneuma08pneuma08 Member Full Members
    edited July 2003
    </span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (hlhsquallsion @ July 08 2003,13:19)</td></tr><tr><td class="QUOTE"...we all have different opinions about what qualifys what, and to flat-out say "i'm the best" or "he's the best" without any strong evidence is purely...um... egotistic?[/QUOTE]<span id='postcolor'>
    Try "arbitrary" (Definition 2).

    As for clich?s, I really don't think they should make or break a game.

    </span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td class="QUOTE"...what?s the point in playing a game where you know what?s going to happen, who?s going to live, who?s going to die, and what shape the world?s going to be in when its all said and done? [/QUOTE]<span id='postcolor'>
    Well, the ride. How you get there. You may know that a certain character is going to die, but you don't know when, how, and what will happen in-between.

    That said, I can see where you're coming from. Too many clich?s can spoil an otherwise good game/movie/misc. media. If the whole thing is known from the start, your point still stands, and my prior point is defeated.

    Still, it is possible to "salvage" what is left and form a decent-to-good game that definitely doesn't appeal to everyone. It keeps a game from being truely special, but it usually doesn't kill a game completely, unless you care a lot about the plot. That is why there are different point categories in reviews. Too many clich?s and/or an uninteresting plot, and the "Plot" criteria takes a hit. It is merely one part of the game (although, depending on your interests, it can be a major part).

    And if you want games without clich?s, they are there. (Rarer, but that's the nature of the Original.) If you don't want to play games with too many clich?s, don't play them. It's like going into a McDonalds and complaining about the food being bland.

    edit - grammar error, merged two paragraphs, and a small syntax change



  • slapizaga_the_banditslapizaga_the_bandit Member Full Members
    edited July 2003
    Clich?... The only problem with this is that once an idea has been done once or twice, through any and all sorts of media (novels, short stories, video games, movies, etc), is that the new ideas themselves are added to that already huge list of known clich?'s. If I have been exposed to a story that I read as a child and then played a game with a similar story as an adult, it can be seen as a clich? (as well as likely nostalgic) because I'll be saying, "Oh, I've been there, done that before..."

    But with how many different mediums there are today to experience these stories and more, it become increasingly difficult to find something that is "fresh and exhilarating" because someone has probably already covered it. And if it wasn't covered by one person alone, it probably has through various other peoples' work collectively. All in all, some people are just too damn picky. If you want to play games in a certain genre, whether they are fighting games, simulation games, role-playing games, etc, you have to expect to see some amount of clich?'d work in them (not necessarily the whole thing, mind you)...especially if you have had a full palate and exposure to lots of similar work through the entertainment channels we have access to.

    It is nice to see new ideas or story elements added here and there, but in the end, I'm rarely surprised about what is happening or who did what because I have seen so many other games, books, etc. cover it to some degree as to make it not all that moving quite the way earlier RPG's and the like had over me. But that's okay. I've come to expect that. Once in a great while do I see something truly new or, at least, done from a different perspective, and that's exciting. But the next time I see something like that, it's not going to have the same effect. And rather than complain about what I'm being served, I'm going to enjoy it for what it is: a diversion, a hobby, a way to unwind and relax.

    Beggars can't always be choosers...especially if they command no weight in the matter. I wish I could see fresh and new things with each game I play, and while I do see some elements that are of that kind, the overall experience with just about all of them leaves me with the sense that I have seen it done before. Such is life. confused.gif
  • RicoRico Member Full Members
    edited July 2003
    Properly, a clich? isn't a device which is common, it's a device which is no longer effective or doesn't have any interest because it has been overused. It's up there on the misused terms list somewhere around hypocrisy and such. And also, despite what the first run of the update would have led you to believe, clich? is pluralized with just the plain s like almost any other noun.
  • MetacodMetacod Member Full Members
    edited July 2003
    I've never been a person who cared much about cliches. I'm with Dracos ? if a story is cool and emotional, I could care less about whether it's unoriginal.
  • hlhsquallsionhlhsquallsion Member Full Members
    edited July 2003
    </span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td class="QUOTE"Properly, a clich? isn't a device which is common, it's a device which is no longer effective or doesn't have any interest because it has been overused. It's up there on the misused terms list somewhere around hypocrisy and such.[/QUOTE]<span id='postcolor'>

    now that that definition is out, i'm thinking... a cliche isn't so much as an overused thing as it is an overused thing in someone's mind. simply put, you can't say something is "so cliche" because YOU'VE seen it so many times; someone else might not have seen it ( i do believe that was mentioned before somewhere). therefore, a cliche (how the heck do you put an accent aigu on the "e"?) is only one if a majority accepts it as a cliche.

    but then isn't everyone's lives cliches? we are born, we eat, we pee, we love, we marry, we get kids, we die... nothing to it.
  • slapizaga_the_banditslapizaga_the_bandit Member Full Members
    edited July 2003
    </span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td class="QUOTE"(how the heck do you put an accent aigu on the "e"?)[/QUOTE]<span id='postcolor'>

    Here is one way to do it. ?Go to Start Menu-->Programs-->Accessories-->System Tools-->Character Map

    In there, you'll find all the various characters you'd like, including the little symbols like registered trademark (?), copyright (?), etc. (?, ?, ?, ?,
  • pneuma08pneuma08 Member Full Members
    edited July 2003
    Another way to put the ? is to hold down alt and press 138, the release alt.
  • avsavs Member Full Members
    edited July 2003
    Luca Blight was indeed a great and powerful villain, but not everyone might agree with you on the fact that he's the "BEST". I personally believe Teo McDohl could have been a better opponent then Luca if you actually had to fight him (the one on one duel was crap..... And very hard to lose...), Alan and Granseal. Just imagine Tir, Gremio, and Pahn actually fighting their hero..

    I agree, I don't know how the editorial got posted. Anyone could make an editorial as simple as that one. And I'm sure a few people that post here could have put up a better defense as to the reasons that Luca is the 'best'. It would never be more then opinion, though.
  • DracosDracos Member Full Members
    edited July 2003
    I don't think anyone who could, AVS, would bother to do so. I could easily, but why bother? Fanboyish rants of that nature serve no purpose, not even for inspiring discussion.

    Dracos
  • LordBrianLordBrian Member Full Members
    edited July 2003
    </span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (pneuma08 @ July 09 2003,17:01)</td></tr><tr><td class="QUOTE"Another way to put the ? is to hold down alt and press 138, the release alt.[/QUOTE]<span id='postcolor'>
    That's all well and good, but the correct character would be ?, which is alt+0233 (and incidentally, alt+138 doesn't produce any sort of e character for me).
  • pneuma08pneuma08 Member Full Members
    edited July 2003
    </span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (LordBrian @ July 09 2003,17:56)</td></tr><tr><td class="QUOTE"That's all well and good, but the correct character would be ?, which is alt+0233 (and incidentally, alt+138 doesn't produce any sort of e character for me).[/QUOTE]<span id='postcolor'>
    Huh. Guess I'm special then. Disregard the earlier comment.
  • hlhsquallsionhlhsquallsion Member Full Members
    edited July 2003
    </span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td class="QUOTE"Here is one way to do it. ?Go to Start Menu-->Programs-->Accessories-->System Tools-->Character Map
    [/QUOTE]<span id='postcolor'></span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td class="QUOTE"but the correct character would be ?, which is alt+0233 [/QUOTE]<span id='postcolor'>
    alrighty!thanx! smile.gif smile.gif
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