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RPGCast - Episode 455: "That's Not How Time Travel Works"

Chris PrivitereChris Privitere Man vs. Slime, the fourth type of conflictMadison, WIAdministrators
RPGCast - Episode 455: "That's Not How Time Travel Works"

We return from the depths of kidney despair to bring you a fresh show. Chris's FFXI obsession has passed (for now). Kelley learns to Musou. Jonathan becomes a snobby retro collector. Joshua samples the VR sandwich. Alice blasts off into open space. And Anna Marie plays literally everything.

You can find the show notes here: https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1hLXOun1ZxUP6E_vRgsLTdrSzy7q-h4iCHJt3EDYuKRs/edit?usp=sharing

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Question of the Week:
What beloved classic RPG that everyone loves do you think sucks?
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Comments

  • LordGolbezLordGolbez Member Full Members
    Kidney stones are the worst. I've had them multiple times and am not even sure I ever quite got rid of them, but when you feel them, it's the worst.

    On FFT, I never quite got the idea that TGCid breaks the game by himself, even though he's incredible, because by that time I've generally already broken the game with the bare-fisted strength of a monk. When I have Ramza one shotting everything with his fists already, TG Cid is just a nice bonus added to that. Honestly, I think the main thing about Cid is Excalibur which gives the Haste effect. Give that sword to someone else and the disparity is less.
    Also, Disgaea is weak compared to FFT. It's all about lame gameplay gimmicks like color blocks and stacking characters and way too much leveling of everything. There's no comparison. If that's your best example of something that has done tactical RPGs as well or better than FFT, then keep trying. Only thing that Disgaea has on FFT is humor, but at this point I'm way too bored of those games to care. I haven't seen anything in the subgenre that compares to FFT and, frankly, I'm tired of the subgenre at this point.

    QOTW: Does Seiken Densetsu 3 count even though it was never actually localized? So maybe "everyone loves" it or "beloved classic" is a stretch, but the views on it tend to be far more favorable than my own. I think Legend of Mana is better than SD3. Actually way better, because I think LoM is an ok, but flawed game, and that SD3 is a bad game. FFXII, but a lot of people hate that and I wouldn't call it a classic. I know there are others. I have a lot of things like this, but now that you ask I'm suddenly having trouble thinking of them. Wild Arms 2? That's not exactly a beloved classic, but it does seem to be a fan favorite among fans of the series. I think it is far, far worse than either WA or WA3 (haven't played the others) and that it was one of the most boring RPGs I've played to the end. Xenosaga? Another one that's of dubious "beloved classic" status, but my intense hatred of this game does not seem to be matched by many people.
    The Tea and Biscuits Brigade offers you tea and biscuits.
  • Joshua CarpenterJoshua Carpenter RPGamer Staff RPGamer Staff
    edited March 11
    Also, Disgaea is weak compared to FFT. It's all about lame gameplay gimmicks like color blocks and stacking characters and way too much leveling of everything. There's no comparison. If that's your best example of something that has done tactical RPGs as well or better than FFT, then keep trying. Only thing that Disgaea has on FFT is humor, but at this point I'm way too bored of those games to care. I haven't seen anything in the subgenre that compares to FFT and, frankly, I'm tired of the subgenre at this point.

    Disgaea wouldn't be my first choice of an example of a better example of the genre than FFT. Obviously, I found FFT to be unnecessarily obtuse, with outdated mechanics that weren't helped by a shockingly bad PSP port. (Ugh, so many bad design decisions I didn't get to in my editorial; like why would you make the first archery weapon available a crossbow that line-of-sight so you can't shoot over your other characters? Argh, gets my blood boiling.) For games that do strategy better than FFT, my short list:

    Tactics Ogre: Let Us Cling Together - This game is why I was so shocked that I didn't like FFT. Has a lot of the same basic moving parts, but everything is executed better. I think that Matsuno's involvement shows and they sanded off the rough edges and made an amazing game.

    God Wars - A recent game that is very similar to FFT in gameplay setup (deep class system, 6 party member maps) but the systems are sensible and explained well. Fantastic SRPG.

    Jeanne d'Arc - Lacks a changeable class system, but the combat was top notch. Loved the way they weaved history with complete fantasy into an interesting narrative.

    Fire Emblem - I'd take any of the modern games over FFT. They are different mind you; playing on default difficulty, the challenge is more about keeping everyone alive than surviving the map; but much better, less frustrating gameplay.

    Valkyria Chronicles - This game certainly has its issues, but I'd take its gameplay and storytelling over FFT any day.

    For a western flare (and maybe a bit lighter on the RPG elements):

    XCOM Enemy Unknown/Within - Such amazing SRPGs; they hit the balance so perfectly where it's fun to get your characters more powerful, but there is always that tension where you know that the mission can go to Moo if you make a mistake.

    Tom Clancy Ghost Recon: Shadow Wars - Mentioning it because it's such an awesome little tactics game on the 3DS (made by one of the main people behind the original XCOM, so maybe that isn't a surprise).
    On FFT, I never quite got the idea that TGCid breaks the game by himself, even though he's incredible, because by that time I've generally already broken the game with the bare-fisted strength of a monk. When I have Ramza one shotting everything with his fists already, TG Cid is just a nice bonus added to that. Honestly, I think the main thing about Cid is Excalibur which gives the Haste effect. Give that sword to someone else and the disparity is less.

    This may be another reason FFT doesn't appeal to me because breaking a SRPG isn't a ton of fun to me. I like a good challenge without being too punishingly difficult so finding a way to break the game doesn't seem fun to me. Over the years, I've heard this talked about over and over, how much people like breaking the game, and that is a negative for me. I seem to be in the minority on that, but to each their own.
  • Jmustang1968Jmustang1968 RPGamer Staff RPGamer Staff
    Becomes a snobby retro collector? Ive been a snobby retro collector for years! Lol

    Do I really come across as snobby though? Just an enthusiast.
  • smacdsmacd Full Members
    edited March 16
    deleted.
  • LordGolbezLordGolbez Member Full Members
    edited March 15
    Oh wow. How could I forget Ocarina of Time. That pretty much tops the list of disparity between popular opinion and my own regard for the game. Worst Zelda game I've ever played. Straight up boring. When I finished I was just glad to be done with it. I knew I was forgetting something big and that was surely it.

    I never thought BoF3 was that highly regarded but it is my favorite of the series. It definitely has flaws including too many forced mini-games and most of the game taken up by rather trivial diversions from the main plot, but those are pretty much staples of the series. It's still got the best gameplay, best visuals, and, when you get past all the diversionary time-filler garbage and down to the meat of it, best story of the series. I'm focusing on that because I just feel like you're trolling with the over the top FF7 criticism and we've already gone around and around on that. You actually have listed like probably 3 of my top 5 games in there, but I'll just focus on BoF3, cause why? :p
    The Tea and Biscuits Brigade offers you tea and biscuits.
  • smacdsmacd Full Members
    edited March 16
    deleted.
  • MacstormMacstorm Ysy St. Administrators
    Calling it worse than ET is crazy.
    "The universe is already mad. Anything else would be redundant."
    Twitter @FinalMacstorm
  • LordGolbezLordGolbez Member Full Members
    Exactly. It's not that you don't like it, but tbat kind of overblown stuff that makes it sound like trolling. Like I intensely dislike Ocarina of Time, but I would never call it the worst game ever or compare it to any Atari game, let alone a notoriously bad one (ET's badness is a bit exaggerated though).
    The Tea and Biscuits Brigade offers you tea and biscuits.
  • BudaiBudai Paladin Full Members
    edited March 15
    Thanks for defending breath of fire 3, comrade. Beautiful game.
  • LordGolbezLordGolbez Member Full Members
    It's not so much that I'm defending it. While I like it, I can easily understand why he doesn't. I just don't understand why he's singling that one out when most of the criticisms of it can be leveled against the series in general. Also, because I was under the impression that more people thought BoF2 or BoF4 were better (even though I disagree with this).
    The Tea and Biscuits Brigade offers you tea and biscuits.
  • BudaiBudai Paladin Full Members
    edited March 16
    It's not so much that I'm defending it. While I like it, I can easily understand why he doesn't. I just don't understand why he's singling that one out when most of the criticisms of it can be leveled against the series in general. Also, because I was under the impression that more people thought BoF2 or BoF4 were better (even though I disagree with this).

    Ha I know what you mean. I’m the bof defense force and I don’t even love the series that much, but I do like it. I do prefer 4 over 3, and all of them over 2.
  • MacstormMacstorm Ysy St. Administrators
    I'm far from the biggest FFVII fan, as it does a lot of things I don't care for, but it's far from the worst FF, let alone game of all time. Hyperbole is strong with this game, it seems.
    "The universe is already mad. Anything else would be redundant."
    Twitter @FinalMacstorm
  • BudaiBudai Paladin Full Members
    edited March 16
    I love ff7 because it’s so free in what it tried to do. All that art, all those backgrounds, so many skills you can get. They really didnt hold back.
  • StrawberryEggsStrawberryEggs Eternal Kyoshi Administrators
    edited March 18
    Considering how big Inuyasha was back in the day, I'm almost surprised that The Final Act (the second anime series that concludes the story) received little fanfare. I say almost because its not an anime that gets brought up as a classic, though I do see at least one cosplayer when I go to anime cons. The Final Act still felt like it took too long to wrap up the story, despite only being 26 episodes long. That may be because it's an adaptation of the last 21 volumes of the manga! I did like the ending, though I also feel like I would have liked it more if that's how the anime ended back in 2006.

    Anyway, while I would hardly say it sucks, I do have a lower opinion of Chrono Trigger compared to most people. It's a good game, heck it's a very good game. I don't think it's the be-all end-all of RPGs. I can name many RPGs I think are better. I can even name several soundtracks I think are better than Chrono Trigger's music.
    Bravely second...
    The courage to try again...

    Twitter: BerryEggs

  • LordGolbezLordGolbez Member Full Members
    edited March 16
    Macstorm wrote: »
    I'm far from the biggest FFVII fan, as it does a lot of things I don't care for, but it's far from the worst FF.

    Yeah, that's FF2, or as I like to call it Stop Hitting Yourself The Video Game. And even that isn't close to the worst game ever made. ET is also not the worst game ever made though (worse than any FF, but not the worst game).
    Anyway, while I would hardly say it sucks, I do have a lower opinion of Chrono Trigger compared to most people. It's a good game, heck it's a very good game. I don't think it's the be-all end-all of RPGs. I can name many RPGs I think are better.

    I kind of agree. I thought about listing CT myself for similar reasons, but then I thought listing a game I loved and played like 20 times (keep in mind you can breeze through this game on NG+, so this doesn't mean I loved it more than longer games I've played less) as "overrated" felt like splitting hairs. I do think it's lower on my list than that of a lot of other people's. It probably doesn't even break my top 10 anymore, but it used to, so I don't have a big beef about this one. Then again, the very first topic I wrote on Square Gamer some 19 years ago was something like "Final Fantasy is better than Chrono Trigger" so the CT fanboys did get to me at some point.
    The Tea and Biscuits Brigade offers you tea and biscuits.
  • MacstormMacstorm Ysy St. Administrators
    ET is pretty close to the bottom, though. It's easily the worst that I own.

    And I don't even dislike FFII the most. FFIII is even less fun than FFII.
    "The universe is already mad. Anything else would be redundant."
    Twitter @FinalMacstorm
  • LordGolbezLordGolbez Member Full Members
    Honestly, most of the times that Square didn't originally release a game in the US, I can see why. Even FFV, which is a decent game, is (I'm sure I'll offend job system fanatics here) subtantially worse than either FFIV or FFVI, so I can kind of see why they would skip it.
    The Tea and Biscuits Brigade offers you tea and biscuits.
  • MacstormMacstorm Ysy St. Administrators
    I love the concept of FFV's job system, just not a fan of its implementation.
    "The universe is already mad. Anything else would be redundant."
    Twitter @FinalMacstorm
  • LordGolbezLordGolbez Member Full Members
    edited March 16
    I don't mind it, but I much prefer the set class system of FFIV. Yes, this leads to less customizability, and customization cam certainly be fun, but there's something to be said for simple straightforward level based progression with clear character differentiation and no hassle.

    I can also go for a nice hybrid system which brings me back to BoF3. BoF3 has staightforward level based skill progression for each character, but it also adds the master system to that so you can either lean into those set differences or offset them with the bonuses and skills offered by the different masters. In most cases I prefer to emphasize a character's natural talents, but sometimes I will boost a poor stat.
    The Tea and Biscuits Brigade offers you tea and biscuits.
  • MacstormMacstorm Ysy St. Administrators
    I don't mind it, but I much prefer the set class system of FFIV. Yes, this leads to less customizability, and customization cam certainly be fun, but there's something to be said for simple straightforward level based progression with clear character differentiation and no hassle.

    That's my preference as well, especially with the GBA and PSP additions to the end of FFIV where you can play around with other party combos if you want.
    "The universe is already mad. Anything else would be redundant."
    Twitter @FinalMacstorm
  • LordGolbezLordGolbez Member Full Members
    Yeah. That was fun. I finally got to gave my dream party replacing Edge with Yang.
    The Tea and Biscuits Brigade offers you tea and biscuits.
  • VictarVictar Member Full Members
    edited March 17
    Ranma 1/2 was manga/anime equivalent of a television situation comedy. Expecting a "satisfying conclusion" from Ranma 1/2 is like expecting a "satisfying conclusion" from The Simpsons.

    Inu-Yasha was a much more serious story, and the manga has a worthwhile ending, even though it took way too long to get there.

    Everything I know about One Piece is from the turn-based RPG on 3DS, One Piece Romance Dawn. It covers several early arcs of the manga/anime and actually works as an introduction to the sprawling "T-Rated Anime Game of Thrones" epic storyline.

    One Piece Romance Dawn is kind of rote and simplistic gameplay-wise, and the story necessarily leaves out quite a few details due to time constraints, but I felt it was a more efficient introduction to the series than buying thousands of dollars' worth of manga, spending thousands of hours watching anime, or reading a wiki.

    I also felt the RPGamer review of One Piece Romance Dawn was pretty accurate.

    QOTW: The original Dragon Quest sucked and was an incredibly boring grindfest. DQ2 was much more interesting, both in story and gameplay.

    The original Wizardy (NES version) earned my personal eternal hatred for how terrible, cheap, and obnoxiously punishing a game it is, and many of its sequels were just as cruel. I've been told that by the time the series reached Wizardry 8 it got better, but I can't speak from personal experience.
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