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Final Fantasy XIII Spoiler Thread

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Comments

  • WheelsWheels RPGamer Staff RPGamer Staff
    edited November 2010
    It is in a game singularly lacking in exploration and environmental interaction.

    At any rate I think we can all agree that FFXII was the better game.

    What? I just told you there's exploration to be had, you can't then come back with something completely different. There's side paths to explore, with treasure and extra battles, which is important with a game focused on a great battle system. What the heck to you mean environmental interaction?

    No we wont all agree that FFXII is the better game, but that's a whole different argument.
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  • ClixClix Listmaster Full Members
    edited November 2010
    Well, barring the man's poor opinion of FFXII, his overall judgment of FFXIII is sound by my books. I think what really upset me was the final dungeon. That's when I was finally broken. I typically love final dungeons in FFs. The only exception is III and XII (the former because I CANNOT SAVE and the latter because the lighthouse was just a bit much [I don't count the Bahamut as the final dungeon]). I now add XIII to that. Orphan's Cradle was so... dull. It tried to come off as some kind of cosmic puzzle... but it only had one path and nothing much in terms of rewards if you took the few alcoves (unlike most of the alcoves in the game). There was also no variety in this final dungeon, this long final dungeon.
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  • MacstormMacstorm Ysy St. Administrators
    edited November 2010
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  • TwinBahamutTwinBahamut Staff Healer RPGamer Staff
    edited November 2010
    Wheels wrote: »
    Many of the maps, mostly in the later side of the game sure, actually have a lot of little side trails and such with treasure on them. Exploration isn't required sure, but is that so bad? Most people will look for all the treasure. There's a lot of extra loot to find.
    Having the bare minimum for avoiding total straight corridors is not the same as having any reasonable level of non-linearity. FFIV, at the very least, has several 100% optional towns, the optional dungeons of Sylph's Cave, Land of Summoned Monsters, Bahamut's Cave, and Eblan Castle, several places where optional backtracking to previously visited areas gives huge rewards, lengthy side areas in almost every dungeon, and random other things like the Excalibur quest or the Odin quest. In addition, several dungeons have very non-linear structure, like the Antlion's Den which makes you find a hidden passage in order to reach the end. Finally, the game actually lets you control your pace and doesn't auto-warp you to the next dungeon without any hope of returning to old areas. The linearity in FFIV doesn't even compare to the stifling linearity of FFXIII.
    Pulse is more than 10 hours generally, and more stuff unlocks as soon as you can go back there in chapter 13.
    It's a minor thing, but it doesn't unlock in chapter 13. It unlocks the moment you beat Barthandalus in Oerba and get the Crystarium upgrade, when the path back to Cocoon appears. You can go to the Faultwarrens then. It's even possible to beat a Zernitra at that time.

    Twin- they are wandering around randomly for only a small portion of the game, and then it's with good reason-they've been branded have no freaking idea what to do.
    I wouldn't say it's a small portion of the game. By my reckoning, it's the entire time between the moment the characters become l'Cie through to their reunion on the Palamecia, and also the entire time from their arrival in the Fifth Ark up until their return to Cocoon, and even then they really don't have a clue what they actually intend to do, and are mostly at the whims of the events going on around them. And while they plan on going to Oerba while on Gran Pulse, it is only because they are desperate and can't think of anywhere else to go (and they only seem to have the vaguest idea of how to get there). And yes, it is justified, but just because it is justified by the plot doesn't change the fact that it is a bad plot set-up!
  • WheelsWheels RPGamer Staff RPGamer Staff
    edited November 2010
    Having the bare minimum for avoiding total straight corridors is not the same as having any reasonable level of non-linearity.

    I'd never call FFXIII non-linear in terms of exploration. It's game focused on it's battle system, and in that area there is plenty of non-linearity to be found. It's not a game about exploration, and it's very clear about that. I'd argue further about FFIV but that's getting off-topic.
    I wouldn't say it's a small portion of the game. By my reckoning, it's the entire time between the moment the characters become l'Cie through to their reunion on the Palamecia, and also the entire time from their arrival in the Fifth Ark up until their return to Cocoon, and even then they really don't have a clue what they actually intend to do, and are mostly at the whims of the events going on around them. And while they plan on going to Oerba while on Gran Pulse, it is only because they are desperate and can't think of anywhere else to go (and they only seem to have the vaguest idea of how to get there). And yes, it is justified, but just because it is justified by the plot doesn't change the fact that it is a bad plot set-up!

    Eh, Chapter 10 on for me it always felt like there was a clear destination in mind, but the main plot isn't that spectacular anyway.
    Clix wrote: »
    Well, barring the man's poor opinion of FFXII, his overall judgment of FFXIII is sound by my books. I think what really upset me was the final dungeon. That's when I was finally broken. I typically love final dungeons in FFs. The only exception is III and XII (the former because I CANNOT SAVE and the latter because the lighthouse was just a bit much [I don't count the Bahamut as the final dungeon]). I now add XIII to that. Orphan's Cradle was so... dull. It tried to come off as some kind of cosmic puzzle... but it only had one path and nothing much in terms of rewards if you took the few alcoves (unlike most of the alcoves in the game). There was also no variety in this final dungeon, this long final dungeon.

    It was somewhat dull, but it was kept short, and had a ton of interesting enemies to fight, including the final bosses, so it evens out in my book.

    Oh, and the lighthouse is insane, and FFIII's end was plain nuts.
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  • HyristHyrist formally jiroo chan 007 Full Members
    edited November 2010
    Chiming in.

    The differences in 10 and in 13 that set me off about the latter is what Wheels mentioned.

    In 10, there was a set goal understood at the beginning, it lent itself well to the linear path. But 13 was ambiguous. Granted, the plot drove the characters forward fairly well, but with them wandering in their purpose trying to find (or deny) their focus they could have done with some more exploration.

    I ended up NOT taking advantage of Gran Pulse and stopping for a extended break on 13, where 10 kept me fairly well hooked throughout.
  • SpartakusSpartakus One Knight Stand Full Members
    edited November 2010
    It is in a game singularly lacking in exploration and environmental interaction.

    At any rate I think we can all agree that FFXII was the better game.

    I find it really hard to compare FFs. They're all excellent games - not counting XIV - but quite different, and you may enjoy one FF for entirely different reasons than another. I don't appreciate FF1-3 for their storytelling, but if you consider a game like FFVIII the storytelling was one of the main reasons why I put up with the tedious Draw system (nothing wrong with the concept, it's just too slow).

    XII and XIII are almost like opposites. XIII is a corridor of battles while XII lends itself more to exploration than any other FF, so if I'm in the mood to replay a game like XII then I'm certainly not in the mood for XIII and vice versa. Both have great battle systems, though I might give XIII's the edge for being less passive. I greatly enjoyed XII's fantasy setting, but XIII's felt more unique, I hadn't seen a setting quite like that before. Still might give XII the edge there for having so many varied and impressive locations. The license board in XII certainly provides you with more options than the crystarium, but I didn't like how you couldn't see the whole board to begin with, as it made the process more random and less strategic (I improved on this by printing a revealed version). The idea that you couldn't use a piece of equipment before you had a "license" was a bit corny in the first place.

    In terms of storytelling XII is very cliche - though in a good way - and again the whole fal'cie-l'cie-cocoon thing felt more creative, and XII kind of forgets about character development in favour of great politics, whereas the focus on character development in XIII is strong and no one is left behind. XII on the other hand has a much better script - one of the best I ever heard in a game - and Vayne and the Judges are far cooler villains than Barthandelus. The final battle in XII was a disappointment however, it was very very easy and totally lacking in scale, and while XIII didn't outshine the earlier games in that department it at least had a sense of proportion.

    But it's hopeless. I'm not really leaning in favour of one or the other. Both XII and XIII are among my favourites but for entirely different reasons.
  • NergalNergal The Don Full Members
    edited November 2010
    I still need to repurchase this game and beat it sometime. Not a high priority, though. I was really hoping for XIII to be more in the vein of XII, since that game is easily my favourite JRPG of modern times. I guess I brought disappointment upon myself.

    I loved the start of XIII, but my interest waned as the game went on. Sure, Pulse was pretty neat but it lacked atmosphere. XII had so many OMFG moments (Feywood-Giruvegan-Crystal Grande is probably my favourite arc of any game ever), XIII had maybe 1 or 2 (the Crystallised sea from the start and possibly seeing Pulse for the first time). XII's sidequests were incredibly memorable, XIII's felt stripped down in comparison. Some of my most fond gaming memories came from XII's Marks. Wandering through the Narebus Deadlands and seeing Roblon looming over the scene, atop a hill... Walking through an eerie, completely empty Feywood and slowly seeing a towering figure, the Behemoth King, revealed through the thick mist... These are minor sidequests, but the memories thereof stick much more freshly in my mind than important, story central moments in any other FF game before or since. I didn't get the same "WOW" factor from anything in XIII, so it naturally felt like a pretty big step down in every department (even stylistically) for me personally.
  • SiliconNooBSiliconNooB Member Full Members
    edited November 2010
    It also helped that XII's dialogue was really well written, as opposed to XIII's poorly written scenario.
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  • MacstormMacstorm Ysy St. Administrators
    edited November 2010
    Spartakus wrote: »
    I find it really hard to compare FFs. They're all excellent games - not counting XIV - but quite different, and you may enjoy one FF for entirely different reasons than another.
    I've been preaching this for years. One of my biggest pet peeves is when someone says "I don't like Final Fantasy" as it's the most ignorant sounding comment ever unless they have in fact tried them all and hate them. It's like saying I hate 360 games and you've only played a couple. Sorry, but they're not all the same, so don't be stupid and lump things together.

    </rant>
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  • SiliconNooBSiliconNooB Member Full Members
    edited November 2010
    Well it would probably be a fair comment for someone who dislikes JRPGs.
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  • WheelsWheels RPGamer Staff RPGamer Staff
    edited November 2010
    Nergal wrote: »
    I still need to repurchase this game and beat it sometime. Not a high priority, though. I was really hoping for XIII to be more in the vein of XII, since that game is easily my favourite JRPG of modern times. I guess I brought disappointment upon myself.

    Expecting any Final Fantasy game to be like the previous one is going to lead to disappointment, the whole idea of the series is that it's constantly changing. FFXII and FFXIII are so completely different games that it's insane to try and compare them. One is trying to be more open, and one is more focused on it's mechanics than exploration. Neither is a bad approach, and it's perfectly fine to like one approach over the other. Oh and if I ever hear someone say again that FFXII "plays itself" I will lose my mind.....
    Well it would probably be a fair comment for someone who dislikes JRPGs.

    Not really, since saying you dislike JRPGs is kind of the same thing.
    It also helped that XII's dialogue was really well written, as opposed to XIII's poorly written scenario.

    I think this is a "your mileage may vary" type of situation. I found XII's overall story to be interesting, but I felt it lacked any kind of character development, and I never really liked any of the characters. XIII, on the other hand, had a weaker main story, but I really felt that the dialog was actually much better than XIII, and even if you don't like all the characters, they were far more interesting than anyone in XII, not to mention it has a fantastic localization. Game stories are never really Shakespeare or anything, so it will probably boil down a lot to personal preference.

    On the other hand, both have late game sections largely devoted to gameplay and less focused on the story, and I think they're both stronger for it.

    (in case you can't tell I love both games)
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  • SpartakusSpartakus One Knight Stand Full Members
    edited November 2010
    Macstorm wrote: »
    I've been preaching this for years. One of my biggest pet peeves is when someone says "I don't like Final Fantasy" as it's the most ignorant sounding comment ever unless they have in fact tried them all and hate them. It's like saying I hate 360 games and you've only played a couple. Sorry, but they're not all the same, so don't be stupid and lump things together.

    </rant>

    Yeah, especially true for the MMORPGs versus the rest of the series. You often see people who don't normally play FF enjoying the MMORPGs (WoW-fans maybe), and long-time FF fans - like me - skipping out on them. I can also see how someone could love XII and not be able to get into say I-III or XIII.

    After XIV I guess I can no longer make the claim that there are no bad Final Fantasy games - bitter, but excluding XIV all the FFs are really good games, yet so varied you're likely to find both games you love and ones you just can't enjoy at all. This is both a strength and a weakness for the series, for on the one hand each installment feels fresh unlike say Dragon Quest, but on the other hand by making every FF an experiment Square-Enix are really setting themselves up for fanboy hate, which has been the case with every new game as far as I can remember - even FFVII! I've pretty much given up on debating which FF is the best one objectively speaking, for objectively speaking they're all really good and the nuances left to argue over are all down to personal preference, like XIII's linearity. My own favourite is VII, simply because it has everything I enjoy about JRPGs and almost nothing of what annoys me about them, but I can easily see how someone starting with XII might not be able to get over the blocky characters, bad localization, random encounters and active time battles.
  • WheelsWheels RPGamer Staff RPGamer Staff
    edited November 2010
    Spartakus wrote: »
    Y
    After XIV I guess I can no longer make the claim that there are no bad Final Fantasy games

    Well, there's always the chance they can fix things enough that it is a good game, but I doubt that
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  • KaiserKaiser A smooth flow of thought Full Members
    edited April 2011
    http://www.toplessrobot.com/2010/03/13_reasons_i_hate_final_fantasy_xiii.php

    i find myself agreeing with most of these complaints
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  • King Jowy XXIIKing Jowy XXII Regnus Obscura Full Members
    edited May 2011
    It also helped that XII's dialogue was really well written

    Really? I could only stand so much of the pretension for so long before it started to grate. Never before has any culture been so enraptured by the concept of a middle name that they must speak them with such irritating regularity.
  • Adriaan den OudenAdriaan den Ouden Δ Hidden Forbidden Holy Ground RPGamer Staff
    edited May 2011
    Well it would probably be a fair comment for someone who dislikes JRPGs.

    Except that someone who dislikes JRPGs might find XII surprisingly engaging given that it borrows a lot of western elements.

    In any case, every FF game seems to have something specific that really stands out about it and the game tends to be built around it. This is particularly true in the past 10 years or so.

    XIII's strongest aspect is its combat system.
    XII's strongest aspect is its writing.
    X's strongest aspect is its plot.
    IX's strongest aspect is its characters.

    Generally the rest of the game is solid, but for each of those games, its those elements that really stand out in my mind. I'll always remember X's story, I'll always remember XII's dialogue, I'll always remember FFXIII's fights, and I'll always remember IX's characters.
    Maybe I'll log out and check my e-mail or something...
  • shoptrollshoptroll Have towel will travel Full Members
    edited May 2011
    omegabyte wrote: »
    XIII's strongest aspect is its combat system.
    XII's strongest aspect is its writing.
    X's strongest aspect is its plot.
    IX's strongest aspect is its characters.

    And for VIII....? :p
    So long & thanks for all the fish!
  • NimNim _ Full Members
    edited May 2011
    The card game?
  • QuinQuin ne cede malis RPGamer Staff
    edited May 2011
    shoptroll wrote: »
    And for VIII....? :p

    The architecture. Esthar remains one of my favourite FF cities (Next to Lindblum).
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  • shoptrollshoptroll Have towel will travel Full Members
    edited May 2011
    Well played. I was watching the Spoony review and the town designs are actually quite good.

    Mod Note: By the way, we're destickying the FFXIII threads since it's been over a year since it was released.
    So long & thanks for all the fish!
  • DravDrav A Serious Man Full Members
    edited May 2011
    FFVIII has the best final dungeon in the series, even though stylistically it is completely incongruous with the rest of the game.
  • Jmariofan7Jmariofan7 Full Members
    shoptroll wrote: »
    omegabyte wrote: »
    IX's strongest aspect is its characters.


    Yeah, no. "Final Fantasy? Whatever" would like to have a word with you.
  • Cassandra RamosCassandra Ramos Eternal Kyoshi Administrators
    That is hardly a significant contribution to a thread that hasn't been posted in for over 6 years.
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