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RPGFan's top RPGs of the decade

7thCircle7thCircle Proofer of the RealmRPGamer Staff
edited September 2010 in Role Playing Games
RPGFan listed its staff's RPGs of the decade: http://www.rpgfan.com/news/2010/450.html

I've always been a fan of lists like this, plus I did a lot of behind the scenes work on RPGamer's decade list so I appreciate the effort that goes into such things. They're fun sanity checks to make sure you didn't accidentally miss any of the best games in existence, if nothing else. While it's cool to see Digital Devil Saga get love -- it's a game I always recommend to people, and they politely nod their heads at me then don't buy it -- it's crazy, crazy high on their list.

Other than that, all I got to say is where the heck is WoW, and I really need to play Skies of Arcadia some day. I own it. People I trust love it. I still haven't played it.
The lesson here is that dreams inevitably lead to hideous implosions.
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Comments

  • SiliconNooBSiliconNooB Member Full Members
    edited September 2010
    DDS was really left-of-feild given that Nocturne doesn't even warrant a mention ...
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  • NergalNergal The Don Full Members
    edited September 2010
    Digital Devil Saga is a bit high, yeah. That said, they're the only SMT games I really like. Great atmosphere, story and style which made me overlook my critiques of the gameplay. The fact you're kind of forced to play a certain way or be hideously mauled rubs me up the wrong way. My first playthrough of #2 saw me build my characters the "wrong" way and when I got to the point of no return near the end I didn't stand a chance against even the most basic random enouncters. Had to restart :(

    Glad I did though- that game has one of the most mindblowingly cool final bosses ever.

    On the actual list, I'd personally give a nod to FFXII rather than FFX, put Mass Effect and Dragon Quest VIII much higher and put a few games I've actually played in place of those I haven't. Still, it's all a matter of preference really.
  • TheAnimeManTheAnimeMan Member RPGamer Staff
    edited September 2010
    It really is although I will agree that WoW, despite being an abject lesson of love/hate should still be on there for the 11.5 mil customers, tons of options between races, classes, talents, gear, etc. All the different areas and so forth. However, if you also notice NOT ONE MMO actually made their list at all which makes me kinda interested in this more from a "Is this a biased agaisnt the genre" As plenty of MMo's both PTP and free came out in the last ten years (LoTRO, WoW, RF Online, Tabula Rusa, Rappelz, FFXI, Aion, etc). So this warrents the question of biased opions on the matter. Now I have not looked at any of the individual peoples accounts for it however or also the wall of shame.

    Edit: So after going through each individual list only one person had any type of MMO on there list which was John Tucker, and it was WoW. No one else had even a nod to MMO's so the list from RPGfan is really a list of huge personal preferences that they gathered up, saw how many people liked each one and then decided on, by the number of times lsited by the individuals which ones were the "Top Twenty". I'm not sure if there were any other considering factors like industry leading, pushing the envelope, etc that was done but from a glance this is how it appears to be after going through the entire list.
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  • CidolfasCidolfas Member Full Members
    edited September 2010
    Disappointing that TWEWY is so low while Chrono Cross and DQ8 - both good games but not great - are far higher.

    I am also not feeling the love for Persona 3 that so many other people seem to be... I'm halfway through the game and dying for it to be over.
  • NyxNyx Staff Girly Girl RPGamer Staff
    edited September 2010
    Yay Digital Devil Saga! I loved the first game, but I really need to find some time, sit down and play the second one.

    Also, Skies of Arcadia is one I really need to sit down and play. I will too, as it's coming to my house very soon~
  • MeoTwister5MeoTwister5 Member Full Members
    edited September 2010
    I'd likely put P3 on top and maybe put DDS tied with Nocturne at two.

    Still that's a (un)surprising buttload of Atlus titles on that list.
  • ChickenGodChickenGod Overdosing Heavenly Bliss Moderators
    edited September 2010
    I actually liked this list a little bit more than RPGamer's, if I'm going to be frank.

    One reason for this may be because it lists 10 additional titles. If I were to consider RPGamer's list with its additional 10, I think it would be a much closer race, however, RPGFan's would still win out with me based on the merit of actually having some of my favorite games on their list. Major props for matching my personal #1 in DDS, along with TWEWY and XS3, while managing to keep ones I didn't like away. Its actually kind of astonishing how similar the top 20 are, so I guess its not that big of a difference though.

    I'll agree with the general sentiment that WoW should have been on this list for its obvious virtues. As someone else mentioned, perhaps its just a scenario where MMORPGs weren't really considered, as I believe someone mentioned only one was even mentioned in the staff picks. Thats certainly a possibility, and if the genre didn't hold much clout with the staffers there then its understandable, especially since there are no other MMOs on the list in its place.

    Finally, to everyone who has never played Skies of Arcadia before, I'd be very cautious if I were you. I also had the same experience last year, I had heard SoA was an amazing game for the longest time and I had never played it. Turns out, the gameplay is extremely slow, and the story is about as cliche ridden as youll ever find in the genre. Cap that off with a high encounter rate during what is arguably the most entertaining aspect of the game, skyship exploration, and I was very bored throughout. 7th had a great statement regarding Persona 2 and how its age had really impacted the experience, and I think that applies here more than any game I have ever played.
  • TheAnimeManTheAnimeMan Member RPGamer Staff
    edited September 2010
    This is why I don't personally agree with the list over at RPGFan (also both points you mentioned were brought up by me in my last post) Pretty much every item (save like 3) I personally love as well which is why I can't agree with there list at all. Cause there are games that actually helped completely define the genre that didn't even make it to the list at all. Valkyria Chronicles, WoW, and more that helped advance the genre's, pushed the envelope, added new aspects and ways of thinking of the RPG genre as a whole that weren't even nodded at yet all the titles listed are personal favorites. A Top list of anything isn't about popularity and things that people love but actually should be done for things much more intuitive such as did it bring something new to the table, are there musical compositions that really stand out from the rest, did they define the genre or even go above what is expected of the genre. Having personal favorites on a list is fine, however being a list composed of nothing but personal favorites a true list should not be.

    Now some of the games on that list I can totally agree with. Twewy, which I have not played, should be on there cause that game did revolutionary things to the RPG format. But Lunar 2, Skies of Arcadia (which I LOVE), Chrono Cross (which is a love/hate title), Ever 17 (which is a Graphic Adventure and not so much and RPG unlike Utawarimono). Are not really candidates for the list or at least as high as they are on the list. Heck I would accept Drakengard which by far a crappy *** title. Because it went in directions on concepts that till that point had been pretty much utterly taboo for video games to speak of outside of PC games (incest, rape, etc).

    To many people let personal feelings get in the way of the actual making of lists like this. And sadly the RPGfan list shows this. Yeah there top 20 are, for the most part, AWESOME GAMES I LOVE. But there are by far more awesome games that did more for the genre then just sell well and be really good games. As I've mentioned, WoW, which had taken many things to the table and has pretty much been the utter definition by which MMO's now grade themslves, Aion which is one of the most stunningly beautiful MMO's to date, Valkyria Chronicles which took cell shaded graphics to an utter high as well as did completely unique things to the SRPG genre not yet seen with the tactical lay out. Some really great games not even get a side mention.

    What about the remakes of FF III and FFIV which completely re-wrote the way we look at those games as a whole and added such game play elements only capable now?
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  • 7thCircle7thCircle Proofer of the Realm RPGamer Staff
    edited September 2010
    To an extent, the issues you guys are pointing out are part of what makes these things interesting to me -- you get an easy snapshot of the personal preferences of the people who write for RPGFan. I too noticed that there were no MMOs on the list, and you know, despite how well MMOs do, not everyone plays them. I've never played an MMO. What happens when you have a group of people make a top 10 list, then sum the results is that the most played games in that group of people end up on top. You take a niche game like Nocturne which has its diehard fans, and you poll 20 people who love RPGs, and maybe only 3 of them played it. Then you take a game like Chrono Cross that gets a lot of love and a lot of hate, you poll 20 people who love RPGs and find that 19 of them played it, 8 of them adored it, and it ends up on the top 20 of all time despite all the gamers who detest it.

    Comparing the lists, it is obvious that RPGamer gave more credit to recent games which may or may not end up standing the test of time or impacting the genre. Demon's Souls, Valkyria Chronicles, and Dragon Age: Origins were all very recent, and even though Fallout 3 was on both lists, it was much higher on RPGamer's. On the other hand, RPGFan gave more nods to established classics like Final Fantasy IX and KotOR while showing a ton of SMT love. I guess you can conclude that we adore the newest shinies above all else at RPGamer, while RPGFan thinks nothing great was made in the last 5 years, unless Atlus made it. Of course, with turnover being what it is at volunteer fan websites, each site could do another best of the decade feature in a year and get drastically different results.
    The lesson here is that dreams inevitably lead to hideous implosions.
  • TheAnimeManTheAnimeMan Member RPGamer Staff
    edited September 2010
    Thats a very good point 7th. Honestly a Top 10 or twenty from myself would be a bit of a mixed bag. As i said some of those games on RPGfan I completely agree with Kotor one of the first attempts (along with Fable) at a system of good/evil. But many of the games that RPGamer used did a lot of ground breaking into the realm of RPGs. Dragon Age, Demon Souls and Valkyria Chronicles all made amazing breakthroughs to the genre and I can see them. Twewy I can compeltely agree with. Dragon Quest VIII could be a mix of throughback to the old school days or to the fact that it took such an old school formula and made it work better for the modern times, which if that was the case we'd wait till the decade was actually over which isn't for 3 more months as a decade spans from 2001 - 2010.

    So honestly all these "Best of the Decade" polls are one year early if you think about it long enough.
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  • 7thCircle7thCircle Proofer of the Realm RPGamer Staff
    edited September 2010
    Fun fact #1: TWEWY was the last game to miss the cut when we compiled the initial top 20 list. So even though it was on RPGFan's list and not ours, they had it #20 and we would have had it #21-ish.

    Fun fact #2: A decade is any period of ten years. So Jan 2000-Dec 2009 is a decade. Where you're getting mixed up is when you label a period of time. The 21st century AD is Jan 2001- Dec 2100 since there is no year 0, but any period of 100 years is a century. If we said "The Top RPGs of the 201st Decade AD" you would be correct, but as long as we don't label the exact decade, we can make it any period of ten years we want. The implied word for us is "previous" or "last" -- the Top RPGs of the Last Decade. Since we ran the feature in Feb 2010, it makes sense that the last decade would be 2000-2009. Same with any measure of time -- a minute doesn't have to start and end when the second hand points straight up.
    The lesson here is that dreams inevitably lead to hideous implosions.
  • ChickenGodChickenGod Overdosing Heavenly Bliss Moderators
    edited September 2010
    For me, when I see a "The Best Games of the Decade" list, the last thing that comes to mind is "how progressive is this game?". Sure, it could make some neat additions or represent a sub-genre well, but at the end of the day I want the 10 or 20 best games available period to be shown.

    For the record, I don't think Valkyria Chronicles did anything all that outstanding or progressive. Its not like we have seen many Valkyria Chronicles copy-cats, or that quasi-RTS style of tactics used in other games. Maybe it influenced the people who played it, but at the end of the day if a game's ideas are not yet being used by developers, can you really call it ground-breaking or progressive? I think 7th hit the nail on the head with this one, in that some games may not stand the test of time. All I know is, I tried very hard to like Valkyria Chronicles based on the near universal praise it gets, but I simply couldn't find much enjoyment out of it. Similarly, most of Sting's games are all very unique and could be considered envelope-pushing as well, but darn it all if I didn't like even one that I have played to this date.

    If I can't really identify with a list at all, then how can I consider it to really show what "The Best" RPGs of the decade were? Out of RPGamer's top 10, I really only liked 1 game alot on the entire list, which was Persona 3. Everything else I either mildly enjoyed (FFX, KH), didn't really care for but could understand its impact (The WRPGs), or downright didn't enjoy (FF12, Valkyria Chronicles). Having played RPGs for the entire decade listed, it feels very isolating and surreal to see only 1 game you thoroughly adored on a list that supposedly entails "The Best" the genre has to offer.
  • TheAnimeManTheAnimeMan Member RPGamer Staff
    edited September 2010
    but jsut cause a game is "Popular" does not make it "the best". You may not particular enjoy a game but that just means that you don't like it, however that no way makes a game good or bad. Itsl ike Drakengard I personal hate the game and think its absolutely crappy game. A lot of people do, I did have a roommate who really enjoyed it and thought it was decent. Does that make it a good game, its all subjective, as are these "the best" list. Hence why I go more towards logical progression on these lists and feel best means that games that push the envelope, do something, completely new for the genre's whether they are popular or not changes or not they do something that no one else has attempted and most of the time they work. However, personal preference will still win out over most people so if they don't like the game its not going to be "the best" by their own personal standards.

    As I stated, I love pretty much all the games save three on RPGfans list, some of the games on RPgamers list I absolutely detest but there are good and bad points on both list. I'm looking at both lists removing my personal preferences from what would be abjectively "the best" not just simply games I like, games I personally enjoyed, and games that are bit nostalgia. Now yes, some of that will play a factor as there are status's for such thing as longevity. Like Final Fantasy 9, although many people dislike the art-style the game has had a long and lasting impression (as an example my wife has beaten it multiple times and its the only one she's beaten despite playing all of them), so yes that does indeed play a factor as well as best can also be a game that stands the test of time. As another example would be Chrono Trigger, the game, to this day, is still regarded as one of the best games ever made.

    It has a very long lasting power in the industry and has been a measure of which many companies and games measure against. After all it was CT that originally gave us new game+ as well as had a compelling story and likable characters. These things are all but many factors look into not just game changing to the genre. However in its own sense those were all game changing in its own right when talking about Chrono Trigger.

    Personal feelings, as I said would play a part, as thats jsut how most people would do these lists however at the same time that also makes the lists biased as a whole. Sadly when it came to the list at RPGfan, the thing is purely made up of personal preference from the decade of game instead of all the factors that would make up a good list. Part of what makes me say that is how when the go to describe Lunar 2, its mentioned the history of how RPGfan started as Lunar.net and so forth which clearly makes it subjective addition to the list where as they should taken and their abjectvity came into question on the list as a whole.

    As an example of a game that wouldn't even make my "best of" list, is Super Robot Wars OG Saga: Endless Frontier. I absolutely love the game and it made a lot of really unique and interesting concepts, especially in the combat system. However at the same time the music is a little week with only, I believe it was 10 tracks, week graphics outside battle, and mashed plot which takes SRW:OG concepts and tries to turn them into an RPG plotline mixed with Namco X Capcom and Xenosaga chars stirred to the mix. However I absolutely enjoy they game, characters are fun and amusing and I will admit to laughing hardily at many parts. But the game is not a best of despite its pushing of teh envelope as the game won't have much lasting power.

    Edit 2: Thanks for the clarification for how the list works with the decade here 7th, I was going by literal time schedule of decade. My apologies
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  • OyashiroOyashiro NEEDS MOAR UNDERBOOB! Full Members
    edited September 2010
    Kingdom Hearts 2 is higher then Kingdom Hearts 1? This is MADNESS!
    Give me Underboob, or give me death!
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  • SiliconNooBSiliconNooB Member Full Members
    edited September 2010
    It's not an objective list, just an ordering of RPGFan's staff fan favourites ... I doubt they judged any of the games qualitatively, they just went with what they liked as gamers, so while some of the results do seem a little odd, they can't really be faulted for liking what they like.
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  • DescaraDescara Fly Away Now Full Members
    edited September 2010
    Not a single even tiny little mention of Valkyrie Profile? I take offense!
  • NyxNyx Staff Girly Girl RPGamer Staff
    edited September 2010
    One of their staff members put Valkyrie Profile as their favourite game, it's just not on the main list.
  • RamblerRambler Member Full Members
    edited September 2010
    @ TheAnimeMan

    I understand the point you are trying to make, but putting a game on a list of "best" just because it changes the genre or is revolutionary in some kind of way is a waste of a spot. It's kind of like putting all the features of a game on a sheet of paper and picking which one looks the best or sounds most interesting. The games need to be played and enjoyed and even things that are old and stale may be exponentially better than things that are just new or different. Personal preference is the only way you are going to find the cream of the crop, hell Nier looks horrible on paper but it is surely the greatest game I have played this year.
  • Adriaan den OudenAdriaan den Ouden Δ Hidden Forbidden Holy Ground RPGamer Staff
    edited September 2010
    Oyashiro wrote: »
    Kingdom Hearts 2 is higher then Kingdom Hearts 1? This is MADNESS!

    To be fair, although the story wasn't as good as KH1 (I still enjoyed KH2's story, just not as much as the original), the gameplay, combat especially, was infinitely improved, which is probably the most important thing about that game. Although I would probably say I enjoyed KH1 more (mostly because of the story), KH2 I think was a better overall game.
    Maybe I'll log out and check my e-mail or something...
  • SiliconNooBSiliconNooB Member Full Members
    edited September 2010
    omegabyte wrote: »
    To be fair, although the story wasn't as good as KH1 (I still enjoyed KH2's story, just not as much as the original), the gameplay, combat especially, was infinitely improved, which is probably the most important thing about that game. Although I would probably say I enjoyed KH1 more (mostly because of the story), KH2 I think was a better overall game.

    Wow, that's the polar opposite of my experience with the series. I preferred KH2's story, but thought that KH1 was a much better game due to the complexity of the level design. KH1 did seem to have a bit more charm to it though.
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  • Adriaan den OudenAdriaan den Ouden Δ Hidden Forbidden Holy Ground RPGamer Staff
    edited September 2010
    Wow, that's the polar opposite of my experience with the series. I preferred KH2's story, but thought that KH1 was a much better game due to the complexity of the level design. KH1 did seem to have a bit more charm to it though.

    Yes, the level design was better in KH1, but the combat was also extremely unrefined. Kingdom Hearts 2 made the combat much more enjoyable, which made it a better gameplay experience. But the game also completely bumbled the Disney side of the game, which is why I think KH1 has the better story.
    Maybe I'll log out and check my e-mail or something...
  • SiliconNooBSiliconNooB Member Full Members
    edited September 2010
    Oh, well I'm not at all interested in the rehashed Disney stories since they can be enjoyed in their optimal form in the works from which they were derived. Thus I enjoyed KH2's narrative a bit more because it seemed to have a little more original content.

    Of course you are right about the combat in terms of mechanics, I guess the gameplay experience in the sequel just didn't really hit home for me due to the strait-forward and scaled back nature of the environments. KH1 was full of rough edges, but it made an impression because of its ambitious structure and objectives, I don't think I'll ever forget platforming up a mobile Oogie Boogie. Also there's the fact that the original game was much more challenging, the tougher balance of gameplay made beating a boss feel more rewarding.
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  • Adriaan den OudenAdriaan den Ouden Δ Hidden Forbidden Holy Ground RPGamer Staff
    edited September 2010
    Oh, well I'm not at all interested in the rehashed Disney stories since they can be enjoyed in their optimal form in the works from which they were derived. Thus I enjoyed KH2's narrative a bit more because it seemed to have a little more original content.

    Of course you are right about the combat in terms of mechanics, I guess the gameplay experience in the sequel just didn't really hit home for me due to the strait-forward and scaled back nature of the environments. KH1 was full of rough edges, but it made an impression because of its ambitious structure and objectives, I don't think I'll ever forget platforming up a mobile Oogie Boogie. Also there's the fact that the original game was much more challenging, the tougher balance of gameplay made beating a boss feel more rewarding.

    Well what made the Disney stories in KH1 so good was the fact that they WEREN'T just rehashed versions of the original story (which is what KH2 did). The story was seamlessly merged with the Disney environments, and the events in each world tied into the original story. Take the Nightmare Before Xmas level you mentioned. The story in that world involves Jack using the Heartless as a possible feature of their Hallowe'en event. In KH2, each world basically just retold the movies, and it was pretty lame.
    Maybe I'll log out and check my e-mail or something...
  • DravDrav A Serious Man Full Members
    edited September 2010
    Their tastes seems really limited. No MMOs, no SRPGs, no dungeon crawlers, only a few of the most mainstream WRPGs etc. I'm guessing most of them fall into the "enjoy games for the story" camp.
  • NergalNergal The Don Full Members
    edited September 2010
    Wow, that's the polar opposite of my experience with the series. I preferred KH2's story, but thought that KH1 was a much better game due to the complexity of the level design. KH1 did seem to have a bit more charm to it though.

    I'm in a similar boat. Everything about 2 was better apart from gameplay. KH1 was much more fun for me personally. I strongly disliked the fact that gaining awesome abilities like gliding in #2 was tied to levelling up Drive forms. And every form had a different way of gaining EXP, some of which were an absolute chore.
  • flamethrowerflamethrower Member Full Members
    edited September 2010
    Their tastes seems really limited. No MMOs, no SRPGs, no dungeon crawlers, only a few of the most mainstream WRPGs etc. I'm guessing most of them fall into the "enjoy games for the story" camp.
    Name one good SRPG released in the United States in the 2000's. I can only name one - Valkyria Chronicles. Shame it didn't make the list though. RPGFan did review it and give a high score. It's probably a problem where only one of their editors has played it.
    It's not for lack of playing SRPGs:
    Fire Emblem Sacred Stones - Good. Maybe it should have made the list; this I think is the best FE game that decade.
    Fire Emblem Sword of Flame (known as Fire Emblem in USA) - Just not that good.
    Fire Emblem Path of Radiance - Just not that good.
    Eternal Poison - Just not that good.
    Gladius (Wii) - Just not that good.

    MMOs - There are cheap free ones and then there's WoW. I've tried neither. Just not interested. For the cheap ones, editors aren't likely to have played the same ones and for WoW, if most editors don't play, then it's not going to make the list.
    Dungeon Crawler - A dungeon crawl is a Shining in the Darkness / Etrian Oddysey style game? Because they do have two dungeon crawlers on the list - Diablo 2 and Baldur's Gate. No traditional dungeon crawlers like the ones I mentioned though. I think these have a limited appeal.
    WRPGs - They have two WRPGs on the list too.
  • NergalNergal The Don Full Members
    edited September 2010
    Fire Emblem Sword of Flame (known as Fire Emblem in USA) - Just not that good.

    :(

    TAKE

    THAT

    BACK

    NOW!


    On topic:
    I've yet to play a bad SRPG.
    YMMV, hey?
  • 7thCircle7thCircle Proofer of the Realm RPGamer Staff
    edited September 2010
    Name one good SRPG released in the United States in the 2000's.

    I can name two: Ogre Battle 64 and Yggdra Union. Both games I had on my personal top 10 list when I submitted it for RPGamer's feature, but I also prefer strategy games over typical JRPGs in general. My favorite Japanese RPGs tend to be the more strategic ones like Nocturne, Persona 3, and Baroque.
    The lesson here is that dreams inevitably lead to hideous implosions.
  • Mike MoehnkeMike Moehnke Code: Kirin Administrators
    edited September 2010
    Nergal wrote: »
    :(

    TAKE

    THAT

    BACK

    NOW!


    On topic:
    I've yet to play a bad SRPG.
    YMMV, hey?

    I support you in your condemnation of the Fire Emblem detractor.
    It's not what he's eating, but what's eating him that makes it ... sort of interesting.
  • ClixClix Former Listmaster Full Members
    edited September 2010
    Same. I adore the seventh Fire Emblem game.
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