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Gaming Annoyances

Phillip WillisPhillip Willis Certified PolygameistRPGamer Staff
I was listening to some YouTube today, when I came across this...

If you do not have time to watch, I can summarize it thusly...Nick feels frustrated with games that offer class choices (ala FFIII, FFV) or recruit monsters (DQIX, SMT: Strange Journey) that force you to have certain monsters/classes/builds/etc. For example, he mentions the cave in FFIII where you to use magic only... so it forced him to change and level up a job on several character he doesn't care for... black mage. In SMT: SJ, he got slaughtered on bosses with specific weaknesses and strengths.

I think this is a great discussion to have. I recall Rya saying, in a much earlier post, that he preferred games with no choice to games with choice. While I didn't agree with that broad stroke opinion, I will say that I prefer a game with no/few party/skill/class choices to one that gives me plenty of choice, but punishes me for choosing the 'wrong' thing by forcing me to replay hours of content to try something different.

I replied on Youtube and wrote, "I totally agree with you, dude. I had the exact same issues with Shin Megami Tensai and early Etrian Odyssey games. When a boss or area kicks your butt over and over because you didn't pick the right skill, choose the right class, or recruit the correct monster/demon, it frustrates me to no end! Like you said, it feels you have to use a walk through, and I do NOT want to use a walk through! I want to feel like I beat that boss on my own terms...not on exact terms the game demands through nearly arbitrary rules/invulnerabilities/etc.

This is super frustrating in games like EO where respecing your skills/classes/etc is not a possibility or super time consuming or hard. Losing hours of progress to re-do a game or level up a new class is NOT fun. My time is limited, and I do not have the time to rerun games. This was the reason I did not get far in early Diablo games, but I love Diablo III. I can re-spec/change my skills at any time in that game, and find out what works best for me on the fly without missing a heartbeat.

Thank you for taking the time to create and share these videos! "

What do you all think?
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  • TheAnimeManTheAnimeMan Member Full Members
    It annoys me on a different level, I tend to like to be a completionist so when I run into these particular ... things it has to do more with the leveling/whatever of those classes and such

    28 years of gaming and still going strong
    and now a mostly annoyed Father with first son. And now a father again to a second son :D

    Winner of the 2015-2016 Fantasy gaming Pool
  • smacdsmacd Full Members
    edited April 2018
  • DarkRPGMasterDarkRPGMaster A Witness to Destruction Moderators
    I'm not a fan of games that do this either. It can be annoying as hell having spent all this time playing a certain way, only to be forced in another way. I'm okay if the game allows a 'workaround' for this, such as how in Mana Khemia you can eventually teach Pamela the ability Stalker, which has her remove all traits from an opponent, including weaknesses and resistances, and this works on bosses. If you include something like that, I'm fine with that sort of thing. Imagine if they had allowed you to buy magic weapons which bypassed the whole 'strong against physicals' nonsense, would have been a lot better built IMO.
    "Yes, because apparently blindly jumping headfirst into a firefight without a grasp on the situation or any combat experience is a sign of genius these days."
  • CidolfasCidolfas Member Full Members
    It can be done well, but it's tricky. The "metal only" dungeon in FF4 was interesting; similarly the "low level weapons" level in FF9. The main thing you need is to not be penalized for your choices. In these cases, you could switch around your equipment for a level and be more or less done. Forcing you to "level up" a character or class you've been ignoring because they've been useless up till then is a cop-out and incredibly annoying, unless the game drops heavy hints throughout that they're worth investing in.

    I also lean more towards the "linear, no-choice" vs. "open-world, lots of choices" because I'm a completionist who doesn't like putting time into completing things. :)
  • Cassandra RamosCassandra Ramos Eternal Kyoshi Administrators
    While I do mind, and even like a boss fight having having several methods to get through it. One specific build is annoying, but there are are multiple angles to tackle a fight, I tend to enjoy it. I especially like it when during a boss fight, I can figure out what what is needed to defeat it based on its weaknesses, fighting patterns, and the like. Then I can come out with a strategy to take it out. Needing to build up a class or a weapon or something I hadn't before it annoying, though.
    Bravely second...
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  • Shannon HarleShannon Harle qt = π RPGamer Staff
    Bravely Default has had this problem a lot for me lately. I've been wanting to finish all the content, but there are just some classes and builds that just aren't feasible or conducive to finishing everything. And then there's broken combos like Ninjas and Spiritmasters that destroys everything in a way I don't quite understand because I have trouble understanding how Spiritmaster works. But it's one of the most powerful combinations and in order to successfully get through some of the later Asterisk fights, you have to use it practically.

    I know the game can be beaten with the bad ending just using four Black Mages (and sometimes a White Mage), but idk how feasible that is for a True End playthrough...

    It's also one of the things that scares me about Etrian Odyssey since idk if I'd make my whole party, do it wrong somehow and be locked into a bad play experience.
    Currently Playing: Final Fantasy Explorers (3DS), The Legend of Heroes: Trails in the Sky (PC), Atelier Rorona ~The Alchemist of Arland~ (PS3)
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  • TheAnimeManTheAnimeMan Member Full Members
    edited January 2016
    Actually what I am using is 4 Knights, 2 with WHM, 1 with BLK and 1 with Time. I have like top armor with Multistrike and I just learned a combo that increase my defense with them then increases damage depending on your defense. 4x Brave with that being the starting followed by 3x the other ability I was plowing through the final boss and would gotten true end if I hadn't ran outta battery life ... I have not returned to it since.

    Basically I take very little damage save for insta death moves and then I use the other to truly destroy bosses

    28 years of gaming and still going strong
    and now a mostly annoyed Father with first son. And now a father again to a second son :D

    Winner of the 2015-2016 Fantasy gaming Pool
  • daveyddaveyd Turn-based lifeform PAFull Members
    edited February 2016
    Having to redo significant portions of a game is never fun, IMO. These days I get irked if I have to click through a long dialogue every time I attempt a boss battle.

    If a game absolutely requires you to have a certain class, skill, etc. then I can see how that would be an annoyance... unless it's done the right way. If they're going to do that, then the game should either introduce a party member or item that fulfills said requirement... Or at least hint that this will be required (e.g., In HBS's Shadowrun games they will just tell you if you need to bring a Decker along for certain missions).

    On the other hand, I don't want RPGs that do too much hand-holding. If I make really bad decisions (for instance, trying to make "jack-of-all-trades" characters), then the game shouldn't be so forgiving that I can still beat everything on the highest difficulty setting. It's a delicate balance; I don't like it when games seem to require you to use a walkthrough, or wander around aimlessly to stumble on a solution, but I also don't necessarily want a quest marker telling me exactly where to go all the time.

    I love when games give you choices into how to build your party / character. And while the appeal of party based RPGs to me is creating a cohesive unit where each member's abilities / strengths complement one another, if a game allows you to create an "all fighter party", then it should technically be possible to complete the game, even if some battles are much harder w/o a magic user. And if it isn't, then just force players to have a mage in the party rather than making them figure it out through trial and error.

    I'd also love to see more RPGs where your character/s are more than just walking stat sheets. That is, what class you play as determines how you can complete quests. For extreme examples of this, see Age of Decadence or Heroine's Quest, where your character's class influences almost everything, including what quests are even available to you. Or as in Shadowrun where you might make a battle easier or completely avoid it with the right skills.

    While this sort of branching paths may not be feasible in longer, linear RPGs, there could at least be certain secrets and sidequests only obtainable with certain classes / skills. Maybe it's just my imagination, or the games I've been playing, but the amount of secrets (e.g., hidden areas, special items, or even hidden / recruitable party members) actually seems to be much rarer in games than it used to be.

    At least with AAA games there seems to be an ever growing "bigger is better" mentality, when I personally prefer quality over quantity. I want game developers to respect my time / remember that games are supposed to be fun, not feel like work. While I love a good challenge, I definitely don't like repeating the same thing over and over again hoping for a different result.
    Currently playing (on PC): Hard West, Eisenwald: Blood of November, Dungeon Rats, Wasteland 2, Tahira: Echoes of the Astral Empire

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