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Final Fantasy XII

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  • KamikazeKamikaze Member Full Members
    edited November 2003
    Since many of us are clearly confused about the meaning of the word gay, I've decided to take it upon myself to enlighten us all about this often misused word in the English language. Of course, this will probably exacerbate the confusion further, as you each pick the one definition that most closely fits your own, and continue to argue even further with an even greater sense of confidence in how right you are.

    gay
    adj. gay?er, gay?est

    1. Of, relating to, or having a sexual orientation to persons of the same sex.
    2. Showing or characterized by cheerfulness and lighthearted excitement; merry.
    3. Bright or lively, especially in color: a gay, sunny room.
    4. Given to social pleasures.
    5. Dissolute; licentious.

    n.
    1. A person whose sexual orientation is to persons of the same sex.
    2. A man whose sexual orientation is to men: an alliance of gays and lesbians.

    As for Final Fantasy XII. Ho hum. I'm too busy with Final Fantasy XI to care at the moment.
  • Red RavenRed Raven Member Full Members
    edited November 2003
    </span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (sniffy @ Nov. 14 2003,19:25)</td></tr><tr><td class="QUOTE"I am glad to see real armor, and actual fantasy attire instead of regular clothing that looks like it came straight out of 1999 Tokyo.[/QUOTE]<span id='postcolor'>

    Huh? Are we looking at the same picture?

    </span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (sniffy @ Nov. 14 2003,19:25)</td></tr><tr><td class="QUOTE"Arche does NOT look like Yuna.[/QUOTE]<span id='postcolor'>

    I beg to differ.

    </span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (sniffy @ Nov. 14 2003,19:25)</td></tr><tr><td class="QUOTE"Arche is a warrior, so of course she is going to be wearing warrior garb. They couldn't just put her in panties(like Tyris Flare from Golden Axe) so they gave her the red mini skirt...what's the big deal?![/QUOTE]<span id='postcolor'>

    I am not intentionally picking on you sniffy, it just so happens that your post summed up my personal beef with these character designs.

    First, yes, they are art. Not only are they art, they are Japanese art created expressly for a Japanese audience. In fact, I do sort of like them, at least on an aesthetic level (growing sort of tired of neo-gothic attire in RPGs myself).

    However, it is something altogether different to actually claim that Ashe is wearing any armor whatsoever. She's not. At all. By any stretch of the imagination. We can assume that because she is wielding a sword and shield in the screenshots she is a fighter of some sort. If she was some kind of wizard I could see justification being something like "armor would only interfere with spell-casting." But judging by what information we have, it looks like she's supposed to be on the front lines taking massive amounts of damage with the rest of soldiers, knights, and otherwise armored characters.

    It's Final Fantasy. I realize this. It is just sort of disappointing to see a beloved series sink down to Tomb Raider/Blood Rayne-esque levels of outrageously obvious fanservice. Especially after all the progress Aerith, Rinoa, and Yuna (FFX) made in combating such degradation.

    Time will tell, I suppose.

    ? -Red Raven
  • PhatosePhatose Member Full Members
    edited November 2003
    ...er.....but even the front line super-soldier guys don't wear armor. Unless you count leather jackets as armor. As far as armor in a final fantasy game goes...she's about as armor heavy as any guy ever gets. It's not exactly like these people are walking around in field plate, after all.
  • TeresaTeresa Member Full Members
    edited November 2003
    </span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (Phatose @ Nov. 14 2003,23:33)</td></tr><tr><td class="QUOTE"...er.....but even the front line super-soldier guys don't wear armor. ?Unless you count leather jackets as armor. ?As far as armor in a final fantasy game goes...she's about as armor heavy as any guy ever gets. ?It's not exactly like these people are walking around in field plate, after all.[/QUOTE]<span id='postcolor'>
    In FFVI they were...
  • PhatosePhatose Member Full Members
    edited November 2003
    </span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (Teresa @ Nov. 14 2003,23:45)</td></tr><tr><td class="QUOTE"</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (Phatose @ Nov. 14 2003,23:33)</td></tr><tr><td class="QUOTE"...er.....but even the front line super-soldier guys don't wear armor. ?Unless you count leather jackets as armor. ?As far as armor in a final fantasy game goes...she's about as armor heavy as any guy ever gets. ?It's not exactly like these people are walking around in field plate, after all.[/QUOTE]<span id='postcolor'>
    In FFVI they were...[/QUOTE]<span id='postcolor'>
    Who exactly in FFVI are you suggesting was wearing plate mail armor in their animations?
  • Demon_of_ElruDemon_of_Elru Member Full Members
    edited November 2003
    </span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td class="QUOTE"gay IS the correct word for for characters like Squall....Tidus..ect. back when men were men and video game characters still had manly haircuts main characters used to kick ass and never have the "head trauma" or as i like to refer to it as "square syndrome", ie Cloud, Squall, Fei...and so on. and without being homophobic i can state that Tidus "looks" gay. nobody wants a pu**y for a main character.[/QUOTE]<span id='postcolor'>

    Thank you!!!!!

    Gay is the word that best describes the games. And I bet you know what I mean when I say it! the same way everyone else thinks of the word when I say it! Because thats what word represents the whole feel/atmosphere to those pictures and past recent FF games. There gay, not manly normal men. No tough normal 'real like' settings or themes.

    If I thought the characters where actually homosexual, then I'd have said that.
  • TeresaTeresa Member Full Members
    edited November 2003
    </span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (Phatose @ Nov. 15 2003,00:25)</td></tr><tr><td class="QUOTE"Who exactly in FFVI are you suggesting was wearing plate mail armor in their animations?[/QUOTE]<span id='postcolor'>
    Edgar & Cyan. Best seen in the artbooks and CGI opening (for Edgar). Im not referring to the sprites because you couldnt put great details on sprites. Celes was meant to wear her yellow/purple outfit (according to artwork and CGI) and not a bathing suit, for example.
  • PhatosePhatose Member Full Members
    edited November 2003
    </span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (Teresa @ Nov. 15 2003,00:28)</td></tr><tr><td class="QUOTE"
    Who exactly in FFVI are you suggesting was wearing plate mail armor in their animations?
    <span id='postcolor'>
    Edgar & Cyan. ?Best seen in the artbooks and CGI opening (for Edgar). ?Im not referring to the sprites because you couldnt put great details on sprites. ?Celes was meant to wear her yellow/purple outfit (according to artwork and CGI) and not a bathing suit, for example.[/quote]
    Even if I were to allow that sprites can't represent armor (which I don't - Dark Knight Cecil and Kain were both clearly armored in their sprites for FF IV) - Locke, Gau, Terra - all frontline characters - were quite happy to go to the frontlines without wearing full platemail or anything more then clothing. ?And in Gau's case, even that wasn't neccessary. ?In FFIV, Paladin Cecil wears a simple breastplate, and Yang, another frontliner, is barechested. ?Armor is hardly a neccessity for a frontliner in FFs.




    Seperately:


    </span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td class="QUOTE"If I thought the characters where actually homosexual, then I'd have said that. [/QUOTE]<span id='postcolor'>

    </span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td class="QUOTE"There gay, not manly normal men. No tough normal 'real like' settings or themes.[/QUOTE]<span id='postcolor'>


    .....+10 "You just DID say that bonus"



  • SolonSolon Member Full Members
    edited November 2003
    King Jowy -> Congratulations, you were the only one who managed to post something that actually made sense. Seriously, this is so out of line... when I read threads like this one, I lose all hope of ever having a serious discussion about a game here again.

    ONE scan has been released, and all hell broke loose, over the silliest of things. We don't know anything about this game.



    Lasciate ogni speranza, voi ch'entrate.
  • DracosDracos Member Full Members
    edited November 2003
    Not that I disagree particularly but...

    </span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td class="QUOTE"Even if I were to allow that sprites can't represent armor (which I don't - Dark Knight Cecil and Kain were both clearly armored in their sprites for FF IV) - Locke, Gau, Terra - all frontline characters - were quite happy to go to the frontlines without wearing full platemail or anything more then clothing. And in Gau's case, even that wasn't neccessary. In FFIV, Paladin Cecil wears a simple breastplate, and Yang, another frontliner, is barechested. Armor is hardly a neccessity for a frontliner in FFs.[/QUOTE]<span id='postcolor'>

    Locke was a thief. Not a front line fighter. You might have played him as that, but he wasn't any such thing. He was a thief, acted like a thief, and was dressed like one. Gau was a berserker. We don't expect them to be wearing armor, regardless of whether they are front line or not. Terra was a WIZARDRESS! Not a front line fighter. Sure, FF6 allowed you to make her one easily enough, she was designed as a mage. Yang is a monk. A monk + heavy armor="What concept is this? Surely not something that survives." It simply has never belonged with the concept. It's imagined that the monk is fighting without armor and simply, by virtue of superior agility, surviving anyway. Cecil seemed to be portrayed wearing armor quite well enough. Breastplate is breastplate.

    Regardless, I don't really disagree, just think you chose wretched examples.

    Dracos
  • HarryCareyHarryCarey Member Full Members
    edited November 2003
    can we all chill for just a second here? i realize that emotions are high and that the recent info and pictures have given us a taste of the future of final fantasy, but let's not jump to any sort of outlandish conclusions. remember... we'll be learning a lot of new stuff about ff12 on the 19th.

    *is reminded of his interesting times as the creator of "FF3man's Final Fantasy III Castle"* if anybody out there wants to make a website for their beliefs, just remember to pick an original name! bwah.



  • King Jowy XXIIKing Jowy XXII Regnus Obscura Full Members
    edited November 2003
    </span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (Solon @ Nov. 15 2003,04:52)</td></tr><tr><td class="QUOTE"King Jowy -> Congratulations, you were the only one who managed to post something that actually made sense. Seriously, this is so out of line... when I read threads like this one, I lose all hope of ever having a serious discussion about a game here again.

    ONE scan has been released, and all hell broke loose, over the silliest of things. We don't know anything about this game.[/QUOTE]<span id='postcolor'>
    Thank you, Solon. I think it is pretty sad when people leap to conclusions about someone just because they have a certain look.

    Real "manly" men? Come on, now. That's all in one's actions, not their look. I hate to lay out a generalization, but I believe that people who say otherwise don't care about what actually happens around them, for they are more concerned with aesthetic. For the sake of image, they are willing to sacrifice reality. I mean, where is it written that all men must look like Clint Eastwood to be badass?

    "<span class="spoiler">I happen to think that Kevin Spacey was pretty fricken badass in the Usual Suspects as Keyser Soze, myself! he was hardly a "manly man," but smart as hell. Talk about a character who breaks out of stereotypes!</span>"

    Actions speak louder than words, and they REALLY speak louder than looks. Don't discount someone because of how they look. That's just crass, and it is certainly not a trait of a "manly" man. It's the trait of a self-righteous jerk.
  • Slayer of GodSlayer of God Member Full Members
    edited November 2003
    Well said, King Jowy. Extremely well said. I wish I had such a way with words.
    Within the spreading darkness, I pledged a vow to the revolution.
  • Neon_tmNeon_tm Member Full Members
    edited November 2003
    Maybe all this people want is some "Vin Diesel" as a lead man in a FF, because all they want is a "manly-man".. confused.gif

    KING JOWY I agree with you a 100 % percent..

    All they can do and feel is prejudice about certain tipe of person's, if they are like this with virtual or imaginary characters, i really don't want to imagine how they are in their real lives to real person!!



  • ChocoChoco Member Full Members
    edited November 2003
    </span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td class="QUOTE" gay IS the correct word for for characters like Squall....Tidus..ect. back when men were men and video game characters still had manly haircuts main characters used to kick ass and never have the "head trauma" or as i like to refer to it as "square syndrome", ie Cloud, Squall, Fei...and so on. and without being homophobic i can state ?that Tidus "looks" gay. nobody wants a pu**y for a main character.[/QUOTE]<span id='postcolor'>

    This shows your ignorance of culture. Perhaps you don't understand that this game isn't being made by Americans... where the aspect of "manly" is perhaps just a wee bit different than in Japan. In fact, Japanese men seem to favour "cute" over "sexy", and Japanese girls prefer "pretty" guys over "manly"(in the American concept). To those women, "bishounen"(pretty boys, in other words) is/are very manly. Get over your cultural stereotypes.

    It amazes me that after five full pages of posts in reply to a couple of scanned pages, someone still hasn't realized that, hey, this game isn't based off American asthetic concepts! Everyone spouting derogatory "gay" posts shout probably stop now, else they might find themselves forever silenced.



  • King Jowy XXIIKing Jowy XXII Regnus Obscura Full Members
    edited November 2003
    Thank you, Choco.
  • Neon_tmNeon_tm Member Full Members
    edited November 2003
    What Choco said is the the perfect and only answer there is, this game is made BY/FOR a Japanese public, then if the others countrys or cultures like it or not, is their problem.
  • Options
    edited November 2003
    </span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (-Locke- @ Nov. 14 2003,21:00)</td></tr><tr><td class="QUOTE"And think about this, do you remember anyone hating a Final Fantasy game back on NES or SuperNES days? i didnt think so. so yes there are people that like the newer ones....but just as many people dislike them...as opposed to a very smaller percentage with the earlier ones.[/QUOTE]<span id='postcolor'>
    Think about this: how popular was the Final Fantasy franchise when it released games on the NES and Super NES platforms? ?Not very. ?It wasn't even considered mainstream. ?Only a small base of the gaming public welcomed the series with open arms, and while there was little hatred towards the series the rest of the public merely brushed it off. ?Of course, it's much, much different now... answer me this question, Locke: If every installment from the original to the sixth was never released and the series began on the PlayStation platform minus the mainstream status, would you hate the games? ?I'd say, probably not. ?As the people took the original games, you'd have probably brushed it off just the same. ?Why? ?You'd have nothing to compare it to, and you couldn't say that it was overly-influencial to the industry because it wasn't mainstream. ?And simply put, that's why there was no hatred towards the originals. ?Through my analysis, the only reason you hate the newer installments is because of the fact that you think the older ones are superior. ?MonCapitan states a good point also, that the older games get more praise than they actually deserve. ?On many accounts, people prefer the older games in terms of nostalgic purposes, not on game structure. ?Personally, that's the reason I prefer the older games, while I wholeheartedly agree that the newer games are better-designed, more carefully crafted, and much, much more dramatically scripted.

    As for the character design issue, I think that the reason the companies are moving towards youthful, more energetic protagonists is simple: young people play these games. ?With that, more connections with the characters are expected... you see, everyone's been a child, but not everyone's been a grown-up. ?The growth of the in-game character can be understood by any player.
  • Red RavenRed Raven Member Full Members
    edited November 2003
    </span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (Choco @ Nov. 15 2003,13:25)</td></tr><tr><td class="QUOTE"It amazes me that after five full pages of posts in reply to a couple of scanned pages, someone still hasn't realized that, hey, this game isn't based off American asthetic concepts![/QUOTE]<span id='postcolor'>

    Umm, it was page four but...

    </span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (Red Raven @ Nov. 15 2003,00:21)</td></tr><tr><td class="QUOTE"First, yes, they are art. Not only are they art, they are Japanese art created expressly for a Japanese audience. In fact, I do sort of like them, at least on an aesthetic level (growing sort of tired of neo-gothic attire in RPGs myself).[/QUOTE]<span id='postcolor'>

    That said, it irks me a bit that there are people here suggesting we are not allowed to form an opinion over screenshots and magazine spreads. If that was true, why even open a message board?

    No, we are allowed to form any sort of opinion - asinine or no - over any piece of information we please. Complaining about character designs is legitimate at this point, we can see them right now. Yes, the people that are saying "this game will suck" are idiots. Nothing has been revealed about the plot, battle system, or general gameplay. Artwork and character designs have been released though, and are up for critique. And last time I checked, even being an uncouth philistine did not preclude one from making such critiques. ?

    ? -Red Raven
  • ChocoChoco Member Full Members
    edited November 2003
    </span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (Red Raven @ Nov. 15 2003,22:33)</td></tr><tr><td class="QUOTE"Umm, it was page four but...[/QUOTE]<span id='postcolor'>
    The reply on page 4 was concerning Japanese art, not Japanese culture as more of a whole.
  • CyllyaCyllya Member Full Members
    edited November 2003
    Hmm, it seems like a lot of the people having positive reactions to the scans liked FF9, and a lot of the people who are complaining about something or other really didn't like FF9.... I tend to not like FF much, but I did like FF9, and I like these character designs so far... so....

    *adds FF12 to list of games she's interested in*

    What's happening on the 19th? Square is updating the official website or something? I'll have to keep watch....

    I like Van's character design (even though I usually don't care for character designs with so little shirt). He also looks like a nice cheerful character, which is good; all those non-cheerful heroes are so depressing they make ME depressed and moody and grouchy.
  • LenLen Member Full Members
    edited November 2003
    ^ On November 19th, Square Enix is releasing additional information on FFXII!


    BTW, I'd like to add that although I like the design for Ashe, I really don't like Van. It's like he has a 'baby face' and he looks too damn much like a younger, more feminine version of Tidus ( the cry-baby ). I'm dissapointed... but alas, there's nothing we can do now.
  • HarryCareyHarryCarey Member Full Members
    edited November 2003
    </span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (Cyllya @ Nov. 16 2003,14:20)</td></tr><tr><td class="QUOTE"Hmm, it seems like a lot of the people having positive reactions to the scans liked FF9, and a lot of the people who are complaining about something or other really didn't like FF9[/QUOTE]<span id='postcolor'>
    i'm overall happy with the stuff, and i'm not that fond of ff9 (though i think it isn't a bad game by any means). for the most part, i wouldn't be surprised if you're right, though.

    i can imagine ff12 taking the cutesy and silly approach, much like ff9 did. not that there's anything wrong with that.
  • LenLen Member Full Members
    edited November 2003
    ^ Don't forget that Final Fantasy X-2 is apparently taking the same approach.
    So, that would make 3 - cute and silly - Final Fantasy games... huh.

    confused.gif
  • Slayer of GodSlayer of God Member Full Members
    edited November 2003
    </span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (Len @ Nov. 17 2003,01:37)</td></tr><tr><td class="QUOTE"^ Don't forget that Final Fantasy X-2 is apparently taking the same approach.
    So, that would make 3 - cute and silly - Final Fantasy games... huh.

    confused.gif[/QUOTE]<span id='postcolor'>
    Is there a problem with that?
    Within the spreading darkness, I pledged a vow to the revolution.
  • LenLen Member Full Members
    edited November 2003
    </span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td class="QUOTE"Is there a problem with that?[/QUOTE]<span id='postcolor'>

    ... depends if you like - cute and silly - games. wink.gif
    Personally, I prefer a slightly more 'serious' approach.

    ... it's anyone's call kid.
  • Slayer of GodSlayer of God Member Full Members
    edited November 2003
    </span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (Len @ Nov. 17 2003,13:48)</td></tr><tr><td class="QUOTE"</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td class="QUOTE"Is there a problem with that?[/QUOTE]<span id='postcolor'>

    ... depends if you like - cute and silly - games. wink.gif
    Personally, I prefer a slightly more 'serious' approach.

    ... it's anyone's call kid.[/QUOTE]<span id='postcolor'>
    That's perfectly fine. Just as long as you don't believe every game in the series should have such a template. Remember, diversity is a good thing, lest the series go stale.
    Within the spreading darkness, I pledged a vow to the revolution.
  • LenLen Member Full Members
    edited November 2003
    What the heck?

    I'll 'believe' whatever the heck I want... wink.gif
  • CastomelCastomel Member Full Members
    edited November 2003
    I have received a complaint concerning the alleged misuse of the word "gay" in this forum, and after reading through I can see why it would offend some people. Nevertheless, I would like to say the following:

    First, while the original post's subsequent explanation of his use of the term was offensive and ignorant to say the least, it is also pertinent to note that whether or not he meant it well, the fact remains that the word can in fact refer to the things he suggested it refers to. It should also be noted that there is a vernacular connotation of the word meaning simply "lame" or "stupid", which while this may again seem offensive is nonetheless not directly relative to sexual orientation. I am not telling anyone not to be offended by these usages; rather, I am saying only to expect that they will occur since they are deeply ingrained and in many cases probably not directly intended to bear malice against homosexuals.

    Even though I do think flying off the handle at the very sight of the word "gay" is a trifle oversensitive, I also think there are better choices that could have been made; "effeminate", "effete", and "girlish" all convey the same basic meaning.

    Finally to those justifying this sensitivity by pointing out Japanese social standards: it is true that these characters are designed with the Japanese public in mind, but you must also admit that the North American reaction to (or indeed, misunderstanding of) this artwork is an equally valid response. It is perfectly reasonable to expect that a North American audience with different values and expectations will find fault with or even reject a different social standard, and if that happens then there is the possibility that Square Enix will readjust its product to cater to both markets. As such I would request that people not squelch other people's opinions strictly on the basis that they do not agree with their own - as this thread is evidence of, not everyone enjoys their male leads to the Japanese standard and that opinion deserves to have a voice.

    Yes, I'm well aware that I'm diving into a hornet's nest here, but there are two sides to this particular argument, and as is usually the case in such a disagreement there is some validity to both. Please try and keep that in mind.

    Now play nice, and lest anyone think this is a blank cheque to go around saying "gayity gay gay gay" or whatever, there will be serious consequences if a person is found to be unreasonably using this or other terms in such a manner as to indicate prejudice or hatred.
    Whoa! Slow down there, tubby! You're not on the moon yet!
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