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List 3 things that you've been upset with in RPGs.

GrowlanserGrowlanser MemberFull Members
edited February 2004 in Role Playing Games
1. World Maps

Lately, RPGS never seem to give you any freedom at all. I like games like Xenogears where there's this huge world that you can explore and such...

2. Characters

Characters seem to be getting more dull by the moment. Silent heroes from the old games are being replaced! I liked when you give your own personality to a character, and not when they give one for you!

3. Originality

It seems that developers are taking originality alittle to far. I still expect to see traditional RPGS like Breath of Fire III, and Im recieving these short games that annoy me!
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Comments

  • KarlinnKarlinn Member Full Members
    edited December 2003
    1) Inability to switch out dead party members with live ones in mid-combat (assuming the rest of my party is walking around with me). ?Got a whole back row that suddenly decides to call it quits just because my front row died on me. ?Crazy, innit?

    2) Arena battles in which the last fight is impossible to win. ?Mommy, there's a l33t h4x0r hiding in my Playstation, and he's emasculating me by cheating in imaginary contests of skill. ?Can I kill him?

    3) Plots that involve the hero being an unwitting pawn for the bad guy more than half the time. ?Quoth the Grand List of RPG Cliches, "Way to go, Serge."
  • AdremmelechAdremmelech The Original Playa... Full Members
    edited December 2003
    1) Plot - How about an RPG that doesnt have you stop someone from saving the world? Just once I would like to see something a little more realistic. Something more about surviving in a world instead of saving it.

    2) Animal Breeding - I love the idea but they havent been executed very well. I would like once to have a game that included animal breeding in a way that was more practical. Like say for use as food or clothing or as a weapon. Do we have to "catch them all" when we are really only going to use maybe 3?

    3) Final Bosses - They just dont tend to put the fear into ya anymore. I was afraid of Kefka for most of FF6 and of Lavos for almost ALL of Chronotrigger. Give me someone that will make me crap my pants!!
  • Options
    edited December 2003
    1. Action RPG's. ?Or more the fact that there hasn't been a really good one that I can think of since the 2D era. ?Wonky camera's don't help in the few passable attempts I've seen (namely Kingdom Hearts, Dark Cloud 2), and IMO can really wreck a game more than anything. ?I guess I really just yearn for another Seiken game, only in 3D. ?Also, I think multiplayer action RPG's (like Crystal Chronicles and Secret of Mana) are a pretty untapped idea for the most part. ?I would LOVE to be able to sit down with a friend and play through an RPG, watching the story unfold together. ?I think games like Baldur's Gate DA are a passable substitute, but they really aren't all that story driven, and they focus more on just hordes upon hordes of monsters for you to smash, and less about actual character building and development.

    2. Cinematics. ?I'm just really getting fed up with huge cutscenes and FMV's in games. ?When I think about it, I'd rather watch a nice animated cutscene then click through a ton of text per the old days, but I think RPG's need to evolve a little in that they are becoming too much like CG movies, with smatterings of gameplay thrown in as an afterthought. ?There has to be a way out there to integrate story into the gameplay a little more. ?The "30 minutes of dialogue, then 30 minutes of fighting through a dungeon, 5 minute boss fight, repeat" formula is getting kind of stale.

    3. Random Battles. ?This pretty much goes without saying. ?Is it ever going to end?! ?There have been good solutions to this in the past (Chrono Trigger/Cross, Earthbound - games that have been around since the SNES era!) yet RPG devs aren't learning. ?Why?! ?This has been a major complaint of both fans, and reviewers for years. ?It completely boggles my mind that no one seems really interested in fixing this. ?I've still got my fingers crossed for FFXII, but I had them crossed for VIII, IX, and X as well... ?This is a big factor in why I much prefer action RPG's to traditional RPG's. ?Random battles suck.



  • LukeTSManagerLukeTSManager Banned Banned Users
    edited December 2003
    1. Too Simple. ?Nowadays games are simplistic. ?When i say simplistic I mean there is not much too them. ?I want to learn something new. ?I want a game that I have to learn how to play. ?I want a game that has a lot to it. ?So far Koei is the only one that does this. ?With rpgs being very popular. ?You would think they would up the difficulty level and stop making games for 10 year olds. ?

    2. Gameplay. ?Turn based combat is for tactical rpgs and it works very well for them. ?Other than that I believe everything else should have real time combat. ?This brings more difficulty and more atmosphere to gameplay.
    The only reason why I hear that people like turnbased systems on non tactical games is because they like the laziness of it. ?They just want to see the story line. ?I want a video game not a freaking book. ?Gameplay is more important than storyline. ?

    I dont have a 3 yet.

    But I just hope that rpgs and video games in general follow me as I get older. ?I grew up in the nintendo age. ?Video games have been a huge part of my life. ?I wish to not lose interest in them.



  • 1337_Urashima1337_Urashima New Member Full Members
    edited December 2003
    Some of my Qualms with RPG's lately:

    1. None of the newer RPGs really grab my attention. Xenosaga I liked because It was like a movie and it had an interesting story. Grandia Xtreme....worst RPG ever (next to FFXI). Mostly because of the fact that the story was kinda random, and they didn't go into much detail about Evaan's background. It's like the creators said, "Here's your main character, there are all your other playable characters, here's your two towns, and your 5 or 6 extremely long and dull dungeons. Have fun." It dissapointed me. Nothing beats the original Grandia.

    2. It's like RPGs have lost it's adventurous charm. Grandia was a blast to play cause it had so much world to explore, same with many of the older RPG's. Then you have a game like Final Fantasy X, one of the most linear RPGs I have ever played, and not in terms of just the story, but the fact that you could not explore all that much. Sure, there was the Bikanel Desert and the Calm plains, but the rest was just nothing but "follow this path." I like FFX-2 because it provides for a little more freedom. Xenosaga was the same way, but I enjoyed it a lot more.

    3. My last qualm.....Star Ocean: Till the End of Time is not out yet. I have been waiting for about a year and a half for that. Oh well, I am hoping that the Febuary Release date is correct.

    Anywho, thanks for reading my input.
  • GrowlanserGrowlanser Member Full Members
    edited December 2003
    Yea...its like nothing can beat the original/PSone installments of an expanding series.

    I don't get it...why would developers veer from the traditional ways of making an RPG? I enjoyed games like Tales of Destiny, Grandia, and Suikoden II because those games defined what an RPG is. Now they are giving us games like Xenosaga and Ephemeral Fantasia which don't satisfy me at all. What happened to all the grand adventuring, world map trek'n RPGS that I've used to play? Its slowly being replaced by Super Linear "Follow this path" games with dumb characters.

    At this point it seems that an RPG will never fully satisfy me again like they've used to in the past. If Star Ocean: TTEOT and Tales of Symphonia don't impress me, then Ill lose hope.
  • AshgadAshgad Member Full Members
    edited December 2003
    1. Lack of exploration. So yeah, running down the same narrow corridor with different (very pretty) background images broke my adventuring spirit just under seven hours into FFX. I absolutely couldn't take the tedium any longer. Whatever happened to freedom to explore, or any modicum of choice in my party's path?

    2. "Coolness". I'd really rather not play games where the main characters are designed by focus group. That's really all I have to say on that one.

    3. Cliched characters. I'm pretty tired of the arbitrarily, unfathomably evil villain (who may or may not have had noble intentions at one point), the conflicted yet noble hero, and the mysterious female magic user. Other yawners include the burly guy who's got a soft spot for kids, the old man who invariably ends up being someone's father (or, in more extreme cases, several peoples' father), and the strong-willed tomboy.
  • AaediyenAaediyen Member Full Members
    edited December 2003
    Well I'm going to lay my opinion out right here and now on a good topic I think about a lot. But how about I list 6?

    1. LiQuid|Juravial is right, action RPGs stink these days and there is not enough of them. I hear the Japanese don't like them as much as turn based titles, and I would think that is probably why.

    2. Hello, world maps? Oohhh world maps, where did j00 go? Please come back to me.

    3. Towns, yes towns in RPGs these days disgust me. First of all, there aren?t enough of them and second of all they are bland now. Tales of Phantasia and the Star Ocean games had a bunch of towns and I always enjoyed them.

    4. Stories are getting bland I'm afraid; I doubt we will ever see a Lunar/Chrono Trigger caliber storyline ever again. You can only save the world so many times before it gets old yeah?

    5. The characters in recent Final Fantasies are rather forgettable to be honest. In Final Fantasies IV VI and VII, they are timeless. The designs these days seem cookie cutter. I hate to be a fan boy, but I am, and I think Baten Kaitos characters will break this trend of monotony.

    6. I'm sick of Final Fantasy style combat, and I think it's dead finally. FFX-2 certainly doesn't play like one, and neither will FFXII. And I hate to be a fan boy again, but I am, and I think Tales of Symphonia and Baten Kaitos will have VERY original combat.

    In conclusion... I hate to be a fan boy, but I am ?biggrin.gif, I?ve been rather disgusted with everything except Skies of Arcadia this generation. My pics for some of the greatest RPGs ever go as follows. I think they are all golden and now don't take them for granted like I did when they came out.

    1. ?Chrono Trigger (So perfect)
    2. ?Lunar (Cmon make me cry!)
    3. ?FFVII (Ok.. but I bet you can't make me cry again)
    4. ?FFVI (I sold my first CD player to pay for this gem)
    5. ?Grandia (I'v never felt closer to a group of explorers)
    6. ?Tales of Phantasia (Good thing I like the combat sarcasm.gif)
    7. ?Star Ocean: The Second Story
    8. ?Ogre Battle (Yea thats right)
    9. ?Ogre Battle 64 (What are you going to do about it?)
    10. Skies of Arcadia



  • Options
    edited December 2003
    </span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td class="QUOTE"4. Stories are getting bland I'm afraid; I doubt we will ever see a Lunar/Chrono Trigger caliber storyline ever again. You can only save the world so many times before it gets old yeah?[/QUOTE]<span id='postcolor'>
    But wait a minute... You save the world in both Chrono Trigger and Lunar...
  • An FF OriginalAn FF Original Member Full Members
    edited December 2003
    1. Storylines. While I don't play a whole lot of games no adays, I have been disappointed by what I have played. I mean, I want suprise. I want fascination. I want an epic! I want a main character that I am proud to play. I want him/her to kick some serious ass. I haven't been able to laugh and cheer for my main character as he kicked a monster's ass since RYU in BoF2. I want to see a game that has:

    A) A villian who inspires fear and shock

    B) Events that don't lead in a linear and predictable pattern. I mean, come on, is anyone else sick of games where you are told in the beginning who the villian is, and what they plan to do, and spending the game foiling their evil plots?

    C) I want a tale of epic proportions, not something bland, like going off an killing the evil man trying to take over/destroy the world. I want to be blown away by the scope of events.

    D) SUBTELTY!!! Can we please get a game that is not so annoyingly blunt and obvious!!! mad.gif

    2) I want character I can fall in love with, again. Nowadays, I am annoyed by the bland nature of the heroes, the annoying attutudes of heroes, and a certain amount of stupidity that seems to plague recent heroes. Here's what I want:

    A) First, give us a main character we can be proud of. He shouldn't be perfect, not by any means, but he should at least demand some amount of respect from his colleagues and enemies! (aka Cecil)

    B) Please give the heroes some inkling of intellegence. I mean, I am tired of dense characters that need everything spelled out for them. Nothing annoys me more then knowing what I need to do, but needing to wait for the party to figure it out!

    C) Again Subtelty. If you are going to through twists into their history/personality/pupose, then don't make it incredibly obvious, but instead give it too us in a way that truely shocks us. Leave hints throughout the game, that when played for the second time, are obvious. Kinda like the sixth sense.

    3)Please mix originality with tradition. Why can't a midieval setting have an original storyline? Why does a futuristic/modern setting have to be completely off-the-wall? Can there be a nice blending of new and old, or are we doomed to either boring repitition or stupid innovation? Just because it is new, does not mean it is good!
  • Slayer of GodSlayer of God Member Full Members
    edited December 2003
    </span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (An FF Original @ Dec. 06 2003,01:27)</td></tr><tr><td class="QUOTE"Just because it is new, does not mean it is good![/QUOTE]<span id='postcolor'>
    And just because it is old, does not mean it is good either.

    Why the hell was this thread created? It's just a bunch of elitists whining about how new RPG's aren't up to their standards. You do that enough in the other threads.



    Within the spreading darkness, I pledged a vow to the revolution.
  • AaediyenAaediyen Member Full Members
    edited December 2003
    </span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td class="QUOTE"But wait a minute... You save the world in both Chrono Trigger and Lunar...
    [/QUOTE]<span id='postcolor'>

    Yeah, you do, I'm not sure why I picked those games as contenders for stellar storylines. Seems like I clearly wanted to save Luna more than the world though. But I have to admit; you DO go to save the world in Chrono Trigger. Maybe it was the execution of it.

    "Edited" Or maybe, I'm must an elitist whining and complaining about the obvious lack of quality in some RPGs today! But there were stinkers back then. He asked what I don't like in RPGs lately and I made a post on it. confused.gif



  • Slayer of GodSlayer of God Member Full Members
    edited December 2003
    Really? There's a lack of quality in today's Rpg's? Please point them out to me.

    By the way, I never see a thread entitled "Things that upset you about old RPG's." Weird, Huh?



    Within the spreading darkness, I pledged a vow to the revolution.
  • LukeTSManagerLukeTSManager Banned Banned Users
    edited December 2003
    </span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (Slayer of God @ Dec. 06 2003,04:12)</td></tr><tr><td class="QUOTE"
    Just because it is new, does not mean it is good!
    <span id='postcolor'>
    </span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td class="QUOTE"And just because it is old, does not mean it is good either.

    Why the hell was this thread created? It's just a bunch of elitists whining about how new RPG's aren't up to their standards. You do that enough in the other threads.[/QUOTE]<span id='postcolor'>
    Back when Genesis and SNES were out. ?I never once saw anyone complain about an rpg not being as good as a Nintendo or Sega Master system RPG. ?You know why? ?Because they actually freaking improved on them! ?

    Now when Final Fantasy 4 came out. ?I never once compared it to wizardry or ultima. ?I enjoyed it. ?It was an improvement.

    RPG's today cater to a different crowd. ?A crowd I would like to say that simulates the Spike TV's Video Game Awards(OMG THE GIRL IS HOT!!! THAT'S A GOOD GAME BECAUSE ITS ALMOST EXACTLY LIKE A MOVIE).

    Go ahead call me a fanboy. ?I just want a solid game and there hasn't been many of those recently. ?Notice I said "there has not been many" and not "there has not been any".

    I'll list some titles that I believe improved the rpg genre of video games.

    1. ?Star Wars Knights Of The Old Republic ( I had very low expectations for this game but it blew me away especially in how you can choose different sides. ?The battle system was perfectly balanced. ?I still have not met a person who does not like this game. ?I don't even like star wars and I like it.) ?

    2. ?Summoner 2 (one of the best strory lines. ?mixing sci fi with fantasy. ?Not to mention awesome real time combat.)
    3. ?Fire Emblem (This game brings the tactical rpg to a new level. ?You dont only have to worry about your weak characters who are usually healers or mages. ?But you also have to worry about your warriors due to the weapon triangle. ?Hence making this game add more strategy especially since there is also permadeath on your characters.)

    Some may not agree with those choices. ?Some may agree with a few or even one of them. ?But I believe each of them are unique and aid in the making of future rpgs. ?Even if fire emblem has been out in japan for a long time.

    EDIT: ?What was quoted was what slayer had originally said. ?But I am sticking to it.



  • AaediyenAaediyen Member Full Members
    edited December 2003
    I thought I did above. Why don't you name a newer game, and if I have played it, and felt it fell short of my standards, I'll tell you why it did so.
  • Slayer of GodSlayer of God Member Full Members
    edited December 2003
    </span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (LukeTSManager @ Dec. 06 2003,03:23)</td></tr><tr><td class="QUOTE"</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (Slayer of God @ Dec. 06 2003,04:12)</td></tr><tr><td class="QUOTE"
    Just because it is new, does not mean it is good!
    <span id='postcolor'>
    </span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td class="QUOTE"And just because it is old, does not mean it is good either.

    Why the hell was this thread created? It's just a bunch of elitists whining about how new RPG's aren't up to their standards. You do that enough in the other threads.[/QUOTE]<span id='postcolor'>


    Now when Final Fantasy 4 came out. ?I never once compared it to wizardry or ultima. ?I enjoyed it. ?It was an improvement.

    RPG's today cater to a different crowd. ?A crowd I would like to say that simulates the Spike TV's Video Game Awards(OMG THE GIRL IS HOT!!! THAT'S A GOOD GAME BECAUSE ITS ALMOST EXACTLY LIKE A MOVIE).[/QUOTE]<span id='postcolor'>
    You never compared Final Fantasy IV to any other title because it was an improvement? But how do you know it was an improvement if you never compared it?

    Congratulations Luke! You just contradicted yourself!

    By the way, how do you know all fans of new RPG's just like them because of their graphics? Sounds like an assumption to me. I'm sure my good friend King Jowy will be deeply saddened by that since he likes both the new and old games.

    Aaediyen, I didn't mean to imply that anybody was wrong for preferring the old games over the new ones. If you like the older ones better, that's fine.

    However, what I AM against is people nitpicking the hell out of the newer ones and not holding the older ones to the same standard. I'm tired of people treating 16-bit RPG's as if they were some holy state that can never be achieved again, and then never stating why. An entire thread devoted to it seems kind of pointless.

    I do indeed like the new games better, however I have an equal amount of respect for the old ones. In fact, I consider Chrono Trigger one of the best games ever created.

    Since you asked, here are some of my favorite RPG's, in order of preference:

    1. Xenogears
    2. Final Fantasy X
    3. Xenosaga
    4. Wild Arms 3
    5. Lunar 2: Eternal Blue Complete
    6. Grandia II
    7. Final Fantasy Tactics
    8. Chrono Trigger
    9. Breath of Fire V: Dragon Quarter
    10. Kingdom Hearts

    By the way, the reason I like newer titles better is because they contain more character development and storyline depth. Although I like good gameplay too(as my recent enjoyment of FFX-2 can tell), I just don't consider it as high a priority.
    Within the spreading darkness, I pledged a vow to the revolution.
  • An FF OriginalAn FF Original Member Full Members
    edited December 2003
    </span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (Slayer of God @ Dec. 06 2003,02:12)</td></tr><tr><td class="QUOTE"</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (An FF Original @ Dec. 06 2003,01:27)</td></tr><tr><td class="QUOTE"Just because it is new, does not mean it is good![/QUOTE]<span id='postcolor'>
    And just because it is old, does not mean it is good either.

    Why the hell was this thread created? It's just a bunch of elitists whining about how new RPG's aren't up to their standards. You do that enough in the other threads.[/QUOTE]<span id='postcolor'>
    This is a good example of taking someone's word sand twisting them to mean something other then what the speaker or writer originally intended. This is exactly was the media likes to do. You should work for a tabloid (if you already don't).

    Here is the ENTIRE comment:
    </span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td class="QUOTE"
    3)Please mix originality with tradition. Why can't a midieval setting have an original storyline? Why does a futuristic/modern setting have to be completely off-the-wall? Can there be a nice blending of new and old, or are we doomed to either boring repitition or stupid innovation? Just because it is new, does not mean it is good! [/QUOTE]<span id='postcolor'>

    Now, while you may not agree with what I said, please don't decide to accuse me of saying something else, just so it is easier. I was speaking of recent games, not old games. While old games had their share of crap, that is not what this topic is disgusting, nor is it what I am discussing. What I DID do, however, was state that I enjoy a certain amount of traditional aspects in an RPG. A good example is random encounters. While I have had my fair share of annoyance with it (especially when trying to complete a puzzle, and they just KEEP happening and interrupting my train of thought), I honestly like seeing it in RPGs (Note: Items that prevent the above annoyance have appeared in many games, and should be included in new games).

    The idea I was attempting to convey in the last sentence was that originality is not always good. BoF5 is my example. The storyline, for the most part, was pretty original, however, I got VERY bored with it after only a short time (the gameplay also didn't help). A game should not be original for originality's sake, but shuld be original because it is innovative and will improve the game, and the genre overall.
  • Slayer of GodSlayer of God Member Full Members
    edited December 2003
    </span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (An FF Original @ Dec. 06 2003,04:15)</td></tr><tr><td class="QUOTE"</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (Slayer of God @ Dec. 06 2003,02:12)</td></tr><tr><td class="QUOTE"
    Just because it is new, does not mean it is good!
    <span id='postcolor'>
    And just because it is old, does not mean it is good either.

    Why the hell was this thread created? It's just a bunch of elitists whining about how new RPG's aren't up to their standards. You do that enough in the other threads.[/quote]
    This is a good example of taking someone's word sand twisting them to mean something other then what the speaker or writer originally intended. ?This is exactly was the media likes to do. ?You should work for a tabloid (if you already don't). ?

    Here is the ENTIRE comment:
    </span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td class="QUOTE"
    3)Please mix originality with tradition. ?Why can't a midieval setting have an original storyline? ?Why does a futuristic/modern setting have to be completely off-the-wall? ?Can there be a nice blending of new and old, or are we doomed to either boring repitition or stupid innovation? ?Just because it is new, does not mean it is good! [/QUOTE]<span id='postcolor'>

    Now, while you may not agree with what I said, please don't decide to accuse me of saying something else, just so it is easier. ?I was speaking of recent games, not old games. ?While old games had their share of crap, that is not what this topic is disgusting, nor is it what I am discussing. ?What I DID do, however, was state that I enjoy a certain amount of traditional aspects in an RPG. ?A good example is random encounters. ?While I have had my fair share of annoyance with it (especially when trying to complete a puzzle, and they just KEEP happening and interrupting my train of thought), I honestly like seeing it in RPGs (Note: Items that prevent the above annoyance have appeared in many games, and should be included in new games).

    The idea I was attempting to convey in the last sentence was that originality is not always good. ?BoF5 is my example. ?The storyline, for the most part, was pretty original, however, I got VERY bored with it after only a short time (the gameplay also didn't help). ?A game should not be original for originality's sake, but shuld be original because it is innovative and will improve the game, and the genre overall.[/QUOTE]<span id='postcolor'>
    Thanks for clearing that up. It just angers me that there are so many people complaining about the new games and nowhere near as many complaining about the old ones.

    In my opinion, the old skewl vs. new skewl debate has been done to death. Both generations have their pros and cons. I'm deeply sorry if I stereotyped you.

    By the way, I work for the Pittsburgh Post Gazette. You were close. laugh.gif
    Within the spreading darkness, I pledged a vow to the revolution.
  • An FF OriginalAn FF Original Member Full Members
    edited December 2003
    Slayer of God -

    </span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td class="QUOTE"By the way, the reason I like newer titles better is because they contain more character development and storyline depth. Although I like good gameplay too(as my recent enjoyment of FFX-2 can tell), I just don't consider it as high a priority.
    [/QUOTE]<span id='postcolor'>

    Very well, I shall spell out why I think a lot of the 16-bit games are not topped by the newest releases. To do this I shall conpare your favorite: FFX (I never played Xenosaga, so I cannot compare it to anything), and my favorite: FFVI.

    First, the Characters:

    FFX:

    Tidus - whiny, though pleasently innocent, spoiled sports hero who was belittled by his father, and despite his best effort, still cries. "<span class="spoiler">Just before the battle against the Final Aeon, he sounds like he's yelling through tears to me </span>". Oh yes, and the first time we see him "<span class="spoiler">He struggles to lift the sword he uses. He even falls down on his rear!</span>"

    Yuna - Naive, somewhat simple-minded, and also living in the shadow of her father. Takes everything she's told at face value without much personal contemplation. Oh yes, and easily impressed by celebrities.

    Kihmari - I don't think he says more then 30 words in the entire game (then again, I never saw the ending. I am not holding my breath though).

    Auron - Pessimistic, outwardly uncaring although seems to honestly care for Tidua and Yuna, Alcoholic (if the large jug at his waist says anything, though he never seems to take a drink from it throughout the entire game. Must be some pretty stale ale laugh.gif ). Deep sense of duty, however, and a crystalized conscience.

    Lulu - Also pessimistic, attempted to bury emotions after "<span class="spoiler">Death of lover</span>", and for the most part, very Squall like (FFVIII). Also cares deeply for Yuna, and has a deep sense of duty. Also, fairly impatient.

    Wakka - Has the brains of an magic 8 ball. Is very slow on the uptake and represents, to me, the stereotypical dumb jock. Also, sense of duty, though his seems less respectable to me somehow.

    Rikku - Also fairly simple-minded, though she is quicker on the uptake. Very giddy and extremely optemistic. Seems fairly immature, however, and deeply caring for other's feelings, though she is fairly clueless about what to do around hurt and sorrowful people.

    FFVI -
    (Just a few, since there are many)

    Locke - A noble thief with a sense of humor. Is extemely noble where women are concerned, and is fiercely loyal. Somewhat clumsy, although is a good enough thief to steal the clothes off a preson's back (literally!)

    Celes - An arrogant ex-general who manages to find love (Locke) and humble herself for her comrades. Manages to be cold and aloof without being having that "Just shut-up" attitude that Lulu seemed to have.

    Edward - Prince and rather unsuccessful flirt. Fairly noble in ideas and confident of his abilities. Despite his flirting, appears to still respect women.

    Sabin: Edward's twin brother, and gave up the throne to avoid civil war. Humble martial artist and somewhat dense, though not in the bumbling buffoon sort of way. Strong sense of duty, and is not about his emotions

    Shadow - Aloof ninja who is rather uncaring about right and wrong, prefering to base his decisions on the value of money, though not completely. A loner and rather dangerous man

    Setzer - Freedom loving gambler who does not have the best scrupules(sp?) but does know where to draw the line. Almost seems to me to be a mixture of Locke and Shadow.

    Overall, I feel the character's were far better developed in FFVI due to the subtlety of how is was done. Instead of being blunt and practically assigning traits to the characters, the dialogue and character's actions paint a complex painting to be thoroughly enjoyed.

    Second: Story

    FFX -
    "<span class="spoiler">Tidus is draw from a dream world to Spira, where a killing machine is destroying the world, held back only by the heroic efforts of a few self-sacrificing summoners. The party sets out along a journey to prepare Yuna for the same fates, and discovers that the self-sacrificing part is a shame. Yea! Now the pretty girl doesn't have to die. So now we go about a series of battles to destroy the killing machine the old fashioned way. Along the way there is a puchover you tries to be a bad-ass and put the killing machine out of a job.

    However, ther eis much room for the discussion as far as the religion and past history is concerned. A nice touch, in my opinion.</span>"

    FFVI -

    "<span class="spoiler"> First, take the esper for the empire. Then when you find the esper, Terra reacts to it. Next scene, Terra wakes up and can't remember a thing, the result of a mind-numbing device. find out Empire is evil. Flee south from angery mob and join a resistance against the Empire. Empire attacks resistance, and members flee, getting seperated. Three different plot lines diverge from the main temporarily, as all the people get back to original esper. Did I mention the thief gets to steal peoples clothing while their wearing them!

    After everyone gets back, attack by Empire, Kefka is one bad dude, and now we must stop him. (At this point I'm a little fuzzy, because its as far as I have gotten on the latest replay, and I haven't really set down to beat it in a while). However, it does involve finding out secret of espers/Terras origins, Kefka's great treachery, and the only instance I can think of where the World as we know it gets destroyed. Oh yes, and after that you go about rediscovering your friends before saving the world from the evil maniac: Kefka. I will return if you like after finishing the latest replay.</span>"

    I don't think they ever REALLY gave a purpose to the FFX villian, though FFVI's was one of the most colorful and complex I have ever seen.

    Edit: I started this before the last post, so i apologize for being so harsh. I also apologize for the incompleteness of it, but time is money, and like you said, the old vs new has been done probably far too many times, but then again, I love comparing games...

    P. S. - I like newer games for the most part, though really, I've only played the Breath of Fire series, and Final Fantasy as far as RPGs are concerned...



  • Slayer of GodSlayer of God Member Full Members
    edited December 2003
    Thank you for making a logical arguement. It's really a nice change of pace. Although I don't agree with your descriptions of the FFX characters, I will respect your opinion.

    My reason for not liking the VI characters as much as the X characters isn't because the former lack depth, it's just that their depth is never explored. With the notable exceptions of Terra, Celes, Locke, and Cyan.

    For instance, why did Edgar become such a poor ladies man? Why did Sabin want to leave Figaro so badly? And if the reason was so serious, why did he so readily rejoin him? How did Relm turn into such a foul-mouthed ten-year-old(if you've read the original japanese script, you'll know what I mean)? What was the reasoning behind having Gau, Mog, Strago, Umaru, and Gogo in your party? Sure, Gau had a cool backstory, but it didn't tell us anything more about his character. Same with Strago. Their reasons for joining the party seemed pretty weak.

    Bottom line: If Final Fantasy VI had replaced all those quote marks speaking for everybody with the actual characters speaking, it would have been a much better game.

    I liked Kefka too, by the way. He's one of the most memorable villians around. I still get goosebumps when I hear his theme.

    Edit: No offense taken. I think we just misunderstood each other. If you ever get around to finishing X, I implore you to get X-2. It's about as non-linear as you can get, and it has great gameplay.



    Within the spreading darkness, I pledged a vow to the revolution.
  • An FF OriginalAn FF Original Member Full Members
    edited December 2003
    </span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (Slayer of God @ Dec. 06 2003,05:16)</td></tr><tr><td class="QUOTE"Thank you for making a logical arguement. It's really a nice change of pace. Although I don't agree with you're descriptions of the FFX characters, I will respect your opinion.

    My reason for not liking the VI characters as much as the X characters isn't because the former lack depth, it's just that their depth is never explored. With the notable exceptions of Terra, Celes, Locke, and Cyan.

    For instance, why did Edgar become such a poor ladies man? Why did Sabin want to leave Figaro so badly? And if the reason was so serious, why did he so readily rejoin him? How did Relm turn into such a foul-mouthed ten-year-old(if you've read the original japanese script, you'll know what I mean)? What was the reasoning behind having Gau, Mog, Strago, Umaru, and Gogo in your party? Sure, Gau had a cool backstory, but it didn't tell us anything more about his character. Same with Strago. Their reasons for joining the party seemed pretty weak.

    Bottom line: If Final Fantasy VI had replaced all those quote marks speaking for everybody with the actual characters speaking, it would have been a much better game.

    I liked Kefka too, by the way. He's one of the most memorable villians around. I still get goosebumps when I hear his theme.[/QUOTE]<span id='postcolor'>
    Well, Gau was the single best reason for blue magic I have ever seen. It also provided an interesting method for getting of the continent, if you remember the story. Gau was a very well done character.

    Gogo, Umaru, and Mog were bonus characters. Nothing more, nothing less. Indeed, they had about the same purpose as Chocobo racing, or any of the card games.

    Edgar - Why is anyone a poor ladies man? That does not really need any explaining. Actually, it made far more sense, then say, Garnet's falling in love with Zidane (though I deviate from FFX).

    Sabin - His escape from the princely life was VERY well done, as seen in the famous coin-toss scene. He joined the party in the first place because he really did love his brother.

    And Relm was a cocky-smart-a** due to the pampering her grandfather, Strago, gave her. She was a very realistic spoiled brat. Although I agree that Strago and Relm never really needed to be anything more then NPCs.

    And what question marks? The characters did speak.

    The vaguness behind the characters is awesome. It allows for speculation, instead of just telling what drives the characters. What seems more complex to you:

    Yuna - "<span class="spoiler">Tells you outright, "I must do my best to give hope to the people of Spira"</span>"

    Locke - "<span class="spoiler">Promised to protect a woman he loved, and failed. Now he has promised to protect another woman, and will not fail again. Also helps the resistance (what was it called again?) and acts as a go between between resistance and King of Figaro. Calls himself a bounty hunter despite being a thief.</span>"

    If I have down-played either role, please correct me



  • AaediyenAaediyen Member Full Members
    edited December 2003
    I felt FFX was a good game, the only real problem I had with it was the lack of overworld and all the travel agencies. I'd rather they were towns. I felt Yuna and Tidus had good characters and I felt the game was well written in that respect. I also liked all the weapons and the combinations you could put on them. The board gameish leveling system was also a highlight of mine. But, where it fell flat was the world scope.

    Each member of your party in FFVI had a home town. I felt the history on each character was very deep. So did the characters in VII. I guess we differ in that opinion on character depth back then. I think this is important, and that that they should explore the hometown/roots and families aspect in future Final Fantasies more than they have been recently.

    BTW, I like your list, I'v played all those games and like them a lot except BoF:DQ, I have yet to try that game. How is it?
  • An FF OriginalAn FF Original Member Full Members
    edited December 2003
    I found the both the storyline and gameplay cool at first, but soon got boring.
  • Slayer of GodSlayer of God Member Full Members
    edited December 2003
    Here's what I mean by quotation marks:

    When you take a party to the Underground Castle(the one between Figaro and Kohlingen), a random character will step up and speak the exact same line. It could even be Umaro if you wanted. Or if you take Celes and Sabin to Mobliz to speak to Terra, instead of specifing who was talking, it just does this: "Let's go, Terra. We're going after Kefka!" Or something to that effect. It's been awhile since I've played it.

    What I meant by poor ladies man was that even Terra figured out what he was doing. In the original script she says "Are you trying to hit on me?" instead of "What's with you anyway?" Also, why did Edgar become such a ladies man? If you've got a theory, let me know.

    I understand that Sabin did love his brother. What I'm wondering is, why did the fiasco about their father dying make him so upset that he had to leave the castle because of it? I know that he wanted to make his own decisions, but what led him to that choice?

    I think Locke and Yuna were both done equally well. With Locke, he wouldn't move forward with Celes until he got rid of his grief with Rachel. As for Yuna, most of the game she blindly believes Yevon, and thinks self-sacrifice is the right thing to do. But by the end of the game, she says: "I will save Spira, and I will do it without false hope." ?Watching Tidus and Yuna's effect on each other was really a highlight of the game for me.

    Aaediyen: Dragon Quarter is the most innovative RPG I've played in a while. It's pretty difficult too. It's true value is in it's replay, since you have to keep playing it multiple times to get the whole story. The dragon power in the game is god-like, but it's evened out by the fact that there's a counter that ticks away faster every time you use it. Although this does nothing to hide the fact that you can decimate most bosses with a couple of attacks.

    If you're going to try it, I suggest renting it first. As FF Original said, change isn't always good.

    Edit: I also think that a character having a hometown and how they lived in it adds to their personality. That's why I consider VII to have some of the best characters in the series. Then again, that's just me.



    Within the spreading darkness, I pledged a vow to the revolution.
  • An FF OriginalAn FF Original Member Full Members
    edited December 2003
    </span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (Slayer of God @ Dec. 06 2003,06:15)</td></tr><tr><td class="QUOTE"Here's what I mean by quotation marks:

    When you take a party to the Underground Castle(the one between Figaro and Kohlingen), a random character will step up and speak the exact same line. It could even be Umaro if you wanted. Or if you take Celes and Sabin to Mobliz to speak to Terra, instead of specifing who was talking, it just does this: "Let's go, Terra. We're going after Kefka!" Or something to that effect. It's been awhile since I've played it.

    What I meant by poor ladies man was that even Terra figured out what he was doing. In the original script she says "Are you trying to hit on me?" instead of "What's with you anyway?" Also, why did Edgar become such a ladies man? If you've got a theory, let me know.

    I understand that Sabin did love his brother. What I'm wondering is, why did the fiasco about their father dying make him so upset that he had to leave the castle because of it? I know that he wanted to make his own decisions, but what led him to that choice?

    I think Locke and Yuna were both done equally well. With Locke, he wouldn't move forward with Celes until he got rid of his grief with Rachel. As for Yuna, most of the game she blindly believes Yevon, and thinks self-sacrifice is the right thing to do. But by the end of the game, she says: "I will save Spira, and I will do it without false hope." Watching Tidus and Yuna's effect on each other was really a highlight of the game for me.

    Aaediyen: Dragon Quarter is the most innovative RPG I've played in a while. It's pretty difficult too. It's true value is in it's replay, since you have to keep playing it multiple times to get the whole story. The dragon power in the game is god-like, but it's evened out by the fact that there's a counter that ticks away faster every time you use it. Although this does nothing to hide the fact that you can decimate most bosses with a couple of attacks.

    If you're going to try it, I suggest renting it first. As FF Original said, change isn't always good.[/QUOTE]<span id='postcolor'>
    Edgar - Well, consider this. Edgar grew up and lives in decadence. He probably doesn't have to try too hard when it comes to women, so he never became really good at it. After all, most guys learn what lines work, and what don't by trial and error. When you talk to one of the maids in Edgar's room she says (and I'm paraphasing, but I'm pretty sure it's close), "Most of us have learned to ignore him," or something along those lines... This probably indicates that the women of the castle are somewhat experienced when it comes to the King's attentions. Also, when Kefka comes to Figaro and asks for "a girl" Edgar replies with, "There are more girls in here then there are grains of sand out there," indicating that there are both plenty of "fresh" girls in the castle, and his tendancy to not think much of it. His comment soon after Terra's dismay at his approach is, "I must be getting rusty." Again, cheezy lines that don't matter, because he's a king!

    Sabin - The fiasco with his father is probably the result of hotheadedness and youth. Edgar appears to have matured faster then Sabin, probably due to his being the oldest, and heir apparent. Also, he probably was just adverse to court life naturally. I would imagine that to a certain extent that that has no correlation to past events, but is just in his nature. Besides, he most likely knew about Duncan before he left the castle, and might have been inspired by him. I would imagine that all these elements coupled together, and if you recall, both wanted to leave the castle. Edgar just had the sense of duty, probably instilled since birth, to take responsibility.

    The point I was making about the comparisson between Yuna and Licke, is that more was defining him as a person then Yuna. For the most part, FFX characters were fairly two dimensional. They all had a clear-cut-let-you-know-from-the-beginning-single-driving-reason-to move-on personality that is fond in the new FFs. The exception, to a certain extent, is Tidus. But he cries. The main character shouldn't cry. Especially over fustration born from his past relation with his father.

    True, DQ (lol) is innovative, but I found the lack of interaction between the characters, and a lack of a compelling story just too much. Generally, I will play a game through, but I just find it too hard to go back. Especially when I can replay FFVI wink.gif
  • Slayer of GodSlayer of God Member Full Members
    edited December 2003
    I think what the story of DQ suffers from is its obscurity. The fact that you have to play through it several times to get the whole picture, and even then it's hard to figure out. Although I do agree that the characters could have been done better. It's the first game in the series in which Ryu has an actual personality, and they don't explore it enough. Damn it!

    Pretty good theories on Edgar and Sabin, I just wish they could have explored them that well in the game.

    Minor point of contention on Tidus: As you mentioned earlier, he was spoiled by his mother, and emotionally abused by his father. Then his father disappears, and shortly thereafter his mother dies. Auron comes along during this and trains him in combat, while also being a pseudo-father figure.

    Later, he gets transported to a foreign world, which has a culture he doesn't understand, with people he doesn't know, and then he's told his father is essentially responsible for the suffering of thousands of people. Added to that the fact that his love interest has to meaninglessly sacrifice herself, he finds out he's nothing but a dream, and has to die for the happy ending to take place(which goes against his personal beliefs), and you've got a boatload of emotional problems.

    Quite frankly, I think he handled it quite admirably.



    Within the spreading darkness, I pledged a vow to the revolution.
  • GrowlanserGrowlanser Member Full Members
    edited December 2003
    I would not complain about the old ones because compared to the newer ones, they are much better. If anyone has been playing RPGs over the past couple of years you would notice the big change within the genre.

    Features are lost, stories and plot twists are becoming perdictable and gameplay is becoming bland. Somebody needs to do something!
  • Slayer of GodSlayer of God Member Full Members
    edited December 2003
    </span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (Growlanser @ Dec. 06 2003,11:23)</td></tr><tr><td class="QUOTE"I would not complain about the old ones because compared to the newer ones, they are much better. If anyone has been playing RPGs over the past couple of years you would notice the big change within the genre.

    Features are lost, stories and plot twists are becoming perdictable and gameplay is becoming bland. Somebody needs to do something![/QUOTE]<span id='postcolor'>
    Could you give me some examples of what you mean? The only change I've noticed is that characters and storylines have gotten more in depth. That, and gameplay has gotten LESS bland. A few examples: Grandia II, Breath of Fire V, Xenosaga. In said games, you had multiple things to do gameplay wise. As compared to games like Final Fantasy IV and Chrono Trigger where you only gained experience and AP.

    By the way, in the future, please refrain from stating your opinions like facts. Not everyone thinks that the older games are superior.
    Within the spreading darkness, I pledged a vow to the revolution.
  • GrowlanserGrowlanser Member Full Members
    edited December 2003
    Sorry. This is my opinion.

    The thing that I don't like is the characters and graphics being the main focus. And I think gameplay has gotten alot boring, and there isn't as much interaction.

    An RPG is supposed to/should put you in a role of the character, as if you were that person. I feel that you should have freedom when playing that character. Lately, thats not what I see.

    For instance, Xenosaga. Come on, this game is practically a movie(you knew I would say that). Things are also getting to linear...I don't want to always go where they want me to! I want to explore! What happened to Xenogears, where I could go where I want before I move on with events? Unlike Xenogears, Xenosaga has you enclosed within a certain restriction in which you can only move where they tell you.

    Breath of Fire DQ..just disappointed me. Again, you are on a set a set path with no options but to move on. Graphics were ok, but everything else just wasn't as good. Only 3 characters, each with their stories which don't appeal to me at all and little interaction.

    Didn't you like FF IV and Chrono Trigger where the main characters said little to nothing? Didn't you enjoy giving that character his/her personality? Well I did. My best example: Breath of Fire III for PSone. The character had story and depth behind him, but said nothing. It was your job to bring that character to life.

    I would have to say that not all of them are bad...Grandia 2 I would say isn't bad at all. But most games that have come out did not satisfy my likings at all. For shame, developers!
  • Slayer of GodSlayer of God Member Full Members
    edited December 2003
    </span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (Growlanser @ Dec. 06 2003,12:05)</td></tr><tr><td class="QUOTE"Sorry. This is my opinion.

    The thing that I don't like is the characters and graphics being the main focus. And I think gameplay has gotten alot boring, and there isn't as much interaction.

    An RPG is supposed to/should ?put you in a role of the character, as if you were that person. I feel that you should have freedom when playing that character. Lately, thats not what I see.

    For instance, Xenosaga. Come on, this game is practically a movie(you knew I would say that). Things are also getting to linear...I don't want to always go where they want me to! I want to explore! What happened to Xenogears, where I could go where I want before I move on with events? Unlike Xenogears, Xenosaga has you enclosed within a certain restriction in which you can only move where they tell you.

    Breath of Fire DQ..just disappointed me. Again, you are on a set a set path with no options but to move on. Graphics were ok, but everything else just wasn't as good. Only 3 characters, each with their stories which don't appeal to me at all and little interaction.

    Didn't you like FF IV and Chrono Trigger where the main characters said little to nothing? Didn't you enjoy giving that character his/her personality? Well I did. My best example: Breath of Fire III for PSone. The character had story and depth behind him, but said nothing. It was your job to bring that character to life.

    I would have to say that not all of them are bad...Grandia 2 I would say isn't bad at all. But most games that have come out did not satisfy my likings at all. For shame, developers![/QUOTE]<span id='postcolor'>
    As I said in an earlier post, I respect your opinion, but I don't agree with it. Please don't treat your opinions like they were a law that all developers must follow. The RPG fandom is a diverse place. If the majority of mainstream games don't suit your tastes, then by all means, play something else.

    Bottom line: You prefer games like the earlier FF's that focus more on gameplay.

    I prefer games like Xenosaga that focus more on character interaction and story development.

    We'll have to agree to disagree.

    P.S. Crono did have a personality. It was described as pure enthusiasm. Though it would have made the romance between him and Marle more enjoyable had he actually had more than two lines of dialog.



    Within the spreading darkness, I pledged a vow to the revolution.
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