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List 3 things that you've been upset with in RPGs.

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  • Slayer of GodSlayer of God Member Full Members
    edited December 2003
    </span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (An FF Original @ Dec. 07 2003,16:05)</td></tr><tr><td class="QUOTE"</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td class="QUOTE"3. People who accuse today's RPG's of having too many plotholes, even though past RPG's had rampant plotholes.
    [/QUOTE]<span id='postcolor'>

    old games had rampant plotholes? ?Please, do tell...[/QUOTE]<span id='postcolor'>
    Ahem.

    Final Fantasy IV:

    What was so bad about Golbez that Zemus was so easily able to control him? They explained Kain(his jealousy over Cecil), what about Golbez?

    For that matter, what the hell was Golbez up to during those years that Cecil was training to be a Dark Knight?

    How did all those characters who "died" survive? How did Cid survive blowing himself up? How did the elder of Mysidia cure Porom and Polom, even though a soft, remedy, or Esuna spell couldn't do it? What did he know that I didn't? And why didn't he teach it to me? How did those Sylphs haul ass to the overworld in record time to save Yang?

    Why was Yang made king? Just because you're a kick-ass fighter, it doesn't mean you're a good king. With political strategy like that, no wonder Baron defeated them so easily.

    Why didn't the Lunarians seal away Zemus' ability to control people? Why didn't they put him in a coma-like state? If they had any sense, they would've seen the events of the game coming.

    Final Fantasy VI:

    If Leo was such a good guy, why the hell did he join the Empire? Why did he continue to stay with them after they commited such atrocities like the torching of Maranda? With his strength, he could have been a great asset to the Returners.

    What were the Returners doing during the one year Celes was in a coma? Why didn't a group of them get together and try to stop Kefka? Or at least help each other out with their problems?

    What in the red hell happened to Narshe? And why did the two people left alive stay there?

    Chrono Trigger:

    How did Janus get the ability to use magic? The people of Zeal said he didn't have a drop of it. And they had the Gurus!

    If the people of 1999 A.D. were so advanced, why did a single attack by Lavos crush them so easily? Evidently that director didn't know his system very well.

    Why did Janus lead a Mystic rebellion against the humans? If it was just to buy time so he could summon Lavos, it seemed a little extravegent.

    Do you want more? I've got plenty.
    Within the spreading darkness, I pledged a vow to the revolution.
  • Slayer of GodSlayer of God Member Full Members
    edited December 2003
    </span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (An FF Original @ Dec. 07 2003,16:05)</td></tr><tr><td class="QUOTE"</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td class="QUOTE"1. People who are too busy over-analyzing a game's faults that they forget to enjoy it.[/QUOTE]<span id='postcolor'>

    Normally, if I'm complaining about a game, I DIDN'T enjoy it. ?[/QUOTE]<span id='postcolor'>
    Maybe I should have phrased that differently. What I meant was, people who whine about a game's bad points and never mention it's good ones. They leave the impression that the game was completely horrible.

    The fact is, ALL games have flaws. There is no perfect game. I really hate people who seem to think otherwise.



    Within the spreading darkness, I pledged a vow to the revolution.
  • bebop007bebop007 Member Full Members
    edited December 2003
    I don't quite remember all the particulars about each game, so I'll do the best I can:

    FFIV:
    Wasn't it Golbez's hatred that made him so easily to control, probably stemming from Cecil(were they brothers it's probably been a year since I've played the game)

    The elder could revive Palom and Porom, probably because being an elder of a village of magic does have its advantages, for example, stronger, more powerful magic that would not be available to others.

    So what if Yang was just a fighter, how many war heros in the U.S. were made politicians if not presidents like Ulysses Grant.

    Perhaps the Lunarians did seal Zemus' ability to control people's minds, but their seal was weakining in power, which allowed Zemus to control people.

    FFVI:
    Is this really the first time an inherently good person has been misguided into fighting for evil(Suikoden, Disgaea, Lunar, and so) The idea of the trgaic hero is one of the oldest concepts ever. He, like others, probably believed what they were doing was good in the beginning before the Empire became twisted and perverted.

    I think you're talking about when Kefka ruled the "Ruined World" in which case there was probably little they could do. I mean they were absolutely useless before, what chance do they have against "The Light of Judgment" or the power of the Goddesses, that is of course unless they were eradicted in the first place.

    Crono Trigger:
    Maybe Janus just chose not to use magic until later on in his life.

    Maybe Lavos conquered the future because no one had quite developed a defense system against a massive subterranean being that launched a surprise massive assault against the planet. Bear in mind it happened so quickly no one really had a chance to counter Lavos.

    If you think that Janus war was an extravagant plan then just summed about every super-villains evil plan since the dawn of time.

    As you can see I didn't answer all of them(quite frankly they flat out stumped me too laugh.gif ) but many of these were largely so inconsequential to the main plot that the writers saw no need to explore them.



    \"We're about to stage an attack on technology worthy of being chronicled in an anthem by Rush!\"
  • GrowlanserGrowlanser Member Full Members
    edited December 2003
    </span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (Slayer of God @ Dec. 07 2003,15:19)</td></tr><tr><td class="QUOTE"1. People who are too busy over-analyzing a game's faults that they forget to enjoy it.

    2. People who believe that there is a certain template that all RPG's should follow, and if a RPG doesn't follow them, it's not a RPG.

    3. People who accuse today's RPG's of having too many plotholes, even though past RPG's had rampant plotholes.[/QUOTE]<span id='postcolor'>
    1. Because its the faults that ruin its fun factor. For example: Legaia: Dual Saga. Voices are not in sync, battles are just too annoying(yes, annoying enough to ruin all enjoyment) and the story was the dumb "search for these crystals" affair. Altough it was one of the better RPGs last year it still sucked.

    2. RPGs DO have a certain template. The RPGS of the past DEFINE what an RPG is now. The thing is, the RPGS today leave out stuff from this "template."

    I mean, not all RPGs need to be traditional, but some of the general features need to be included. Good text, plot twists and world maps are a must because thats what alot of us play it for.

    3. Even so, at least the other features made up for it.
  • Slayer of GodSlayer of God Member Full Members
    edited December 2003
    </span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (Growlanser @ Dec. 07 2003,18:05)</td></tr><tr><td class="QUOTE"</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (Slayer of God @ Dec. 07 2003,15:19)</td></tr><tr><td class="QUOTE"1. People who are too busy over-analyzing a game's faults that they forget to enjoy it.

    2. People who believe that there is a certain template that all RPG's should follow, and if a RPG doesn't follow them, it's not a RPG.

    3. People who accuse today's RPG's of having too many plotholes, even though past RPG's had rampant plotholes.[/QUOTE]<span id='postcolor'>
    1. Because its the faults that ruin its fun factor. For example: Legaia: Dual Saga. Voices are not in sync, battles are just too annoying(yes, annoying enough to ruin all enjoyment) and the story was the dumb "search for these crystals" affair. Altough it was one of the better RPGs last year it still sucked.

    2. RPGs DO have a certain template. The RPGS of the past DEFINE what an RPG is now. The thing is, the RPGS today leave out stuff from this "template."

    I mean, not all RPGs need to be traditional, but some of the general features need to be included. Good text, plot twists and world maps are a must because thats what alot of us play it for.

    3. Even so, at least the other features made up for it.[/QUOTE]<span id='postcolor'>
    1. Once again, I must remind you NOT to state your opinions like facts. By the way, if a niggling fault like voices not being in sync stopped your enjoyment of the entire game, you've got a serious problem.

    2. They do? If that's the case, then games like Parasite Eve and Brave Fencer Musashi would've never been created.

    Also, since when did what YOU considered good text, plot twists, and world maps become traditional?

    3. What features would these be? Please elaborate.
    Within the spreading darkness, I pledged a vow to the revolution.
  • GrowlanserGrowlanser Member Full Members
    edited December 2003
    </span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (Slayer of God @ Dec. 07 2003,18:24)</td></tr><tr><td class="QUOTE"1. Once again, I must remind you NOT to state your opinions like facts. By the way, if a niggling fault like voices not being in sync stopped your enjoyment of the entire game, you've got a serious problem.

    2. They do? If that's the case, then games like Parasite Eve and Brave Fencer Musashi would've never been created.

    Also, since when did what YOU considered good text, plot twists, and world maps become traditional?

    3. What features would these be? Please elaborate.[/QUOTE]<span id='postcolor'>
    1. I must apologize for that, It's just a habit.

    Anyway, the voice thing was just ONE of the many faults. It actually contributed to my un-enjoyment of that particular game. At any rate, that shows how sloppy these developers are.

    2. Brave Fencer Musashi and Parasite Eve are not Epic RPGs, and I would say, are Action/RPGs with a twist. This is not the point though: If you are going to make a traditional epic RPG adventure then add the features such as World Maps and such. Parasite Eve is an exception because of the setting and such. Its ok for games like Vagrant Story because it makes sense. Games like Shadow Hearts or whatever have no excuse for leaving out such features.

    Come on, you can't tell me that the older games don't feature good text(well, ok not all of them), plot twists and world maps. Must I name Xenogears, Tales of Destiny and Final Fantasy VII? They are part of RPGs that have disappeared in some of the new ones.

    An example, Thousand ARMS. When I first played it, I found it to be crappy but as I played more and more it grew on me. Even with the crappy graphics, the characters were great, dialouge was hilarious and it featured that anime cutscenes from time to time. This game was great! Id rather see a sequel to this then, lets's say, Xenosaga, anyday.(Im not saying Xenosaga was a horrible game neither)

    3. Features such as the various mini-games(even some were stroy-oriented), memorable characters, and battle arenas. Others I can't think of at the moment.
  • An FF OriginalAn FF Original Member Full Members
    edited December 2003
    The reason you are detecting plot holes in older games, is because not everything needs to be explained. True, for some the relative simplicity of games such as FFX it is easy to explain every little bit of emotion and history that goes into every single action by the cast.

    For example, you wanted to know what Golbez was doing all those years before the game actually took place. Why is that necessary? You don't need to know. He was probably making a living like most people in the world.

    How does a plotline improve when the characters lives are so simple that their life stories can be shared in one string of dialogue. Yuna lived on Besaid her entire life training to be a summoner. Sure, there is no question about her history, but come on. How simple can you get? Besides, part of the wonder of the older games is that it DOESN'T spell everything out for you. For the most part, in FFIV and VI, the cast made understandable and believable reactions based upon their surroundings. So we never find out what the Returners were doing for the first year after the world was destroyed. It still makes perfect sense that they are in the places they are, doing the things they are doing when Celis does find them again.

    A hole in a plot does not occur when there is some mystery surrounding a person's history. A plot hole occurs when a cast member reacts contrary to his character's personality without good reason. In FFIV, if Cecil had suddenly turned around and slew all his companions in their sleep, THAT would have been a plot hole. Had Locke left Celis to her fate in the passageway under the rich man's house in South Figaro, THAT would have been a plot hole. Not knowing what someone did in their spare time 10 years ago is NOT a plot hole.
  • adrianchan56adrianchan56 New Member Full Members
    edited December 2003
    Hey nice essay!
    ^

    Anyway here's my opinion of things i dislike about RPGs'

    1. When they get overly boring with dialogue and story.
    2. Monster encounters are above annoying.
    3. When file loading corrupts your save file.
  • Slayer of GodSlayer of God Member Full Members
    edited December 2003
    </span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (An FF Original @ Dec. 07 2003,20:54)</td></tr><tr><td class="QUOTE"The reason you are detecting plot holes in older games, is because not everything needs to be explained. ?True, for some the relative simplicity of games such as FFX it is easy to explain every little bit of emotion and history that goes into every single action by the cast. ?

    For example, you wanted to know what Golbez was doing all those years before the game actually took place. ?Why is that necessary? ?You don't need to know. ?He was probably making a living like most people in the world. ?

    How does a plotline improve when the characters lives are so simple that their life stories can be shared in one string of dialogue. ?Yuna lived on Besaid her entire life training to be a summoner. ?Sure, there is no question about her history, but come on. ?How simple can you get? ?Besides, part of the wonder of the older games is that it DOESN'T spell everything out for you. ?For the most part, in FFIV and VI, the cast made understandable and believable reactions based upon their surroundings. ?So we never find out what the Returners were doing for the first year after the world was destroyed. ?It still makes perfect sense that they are in the places they are, doing the things they are doing when Celis does find them again. ?

    A hole in a plot does not occur when there is some mystery surrounding a person's history. ?A plot hole occurs when a cast member reacts contrary to his character's personality without good reason. ?In FFIV, if Cecil had suddenly turned around and slew all his companions in their sleep, THAT would have been a plot hole. ?Had Locke left Celis to her fate in the passageway under the rich man's house in South Figaro, THAT would have been a plot hole. ?Not knowing what someone did in their spare time 10 years ago is NOT a plot hole.[/QUOTE]<span id='postcolor'>
    Why wouldn't knowing more of Golbez's backstory be a good thing? As I mentioned above, it might of explained why Zemus so easily controlled him. Speaking of which, why did Zemus want the power of the crystals? To take over/destroy the world? What for? I like my villians with a little more substance than "I'm evil because I'm evil, so defeat me!"

    Basically, the message I got from your spiel is you like your characters as simplistic as possible. I don't agree. I don't like characters that I can define in one sentence. I prefer characters that actually have conflicts to them. I didn't learn enough about Cecil and his gang to actually care about them, much less be able to tell when they were actually changing. They were too two-dimensional.

    On the other hand, I WAS able to tell when Tidus and company changed. I could tell when Tidus and Yuna had an effect on each other. I could tell when Tidus' otherworldly ideas began to have an effect on the other characters. The change with their characters was gradual and well done. Who cares if Yuna had only a string of dialog describing her past? As you yourself said, it wasn't important to the overall plot.

    As opposed to the older games where it would've added much more.
    Within the spreading darkness, I pledged a vow to the revolution.
  • LukeTSManagerLukeTSManager Banned Banned Users
    edited December 2003
    </span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (An FF Original @ Dec. 07 2003,22:54)</td></tr><tr><td class="QUOTE"A hole in a plot does not occur when there is some mystery surrounding a person's history. ?A plot hole occurs when a cast member reacts contrary to his character's personality without good reason. ?In FFIV, if Cecil had suddenly turned around and slew all his companions in their sleep, THAT would have been a plot hole. ?Had Locke left Celis to her fate in the passageway under the rich man's house in South Figaro, THAT would have been a plot hole. ?Not knowing what someone did in their spare time 10 years ago is NOT a plot hole.[/QUOTE]<span id='postcolor'>
    Agreed. ?Not because I disagree with slayer of god. ?But because what slayer has to say is unbelieveably off the wall.

    Not to mention. I believe what is wrong with RPG's today has more to do with gameplay rather than storyline. I do not understand why we would argue about storyline. Especailly an rpg from 8 years ago to a present one. Most of that is based on opinion. Besides no matter what people are going to stand up for the games they like. If someone likes the new ones they will say that you are "complaining" or "bitching" about it like slayer says over and over. You will be called a "fanboy" when in actuallity they are more into the series than you are.

    However I believe this discussion can continue further once people start getting some sand out of their... well you know what I am talking about.



  • Slayer of GodSlayer of God Member Full Members
    edited December 2003
    </span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (LukeTSManager @ Dec. 08 2003,01:33)</td></tr><tr><td class="QUOTE"</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (An FF Original @ Dec. 07 2003,22:54)</td></tr><tr><td class="QUOTE"A hole in a plot does not occur when there is some mystery surrounding a person's history. ?A plot hole occurs when a cast member reacts contrary to his character's personality without good reason. ?In FFIV, if Cecil had suddenly turned around and slew all his companions in their sleep, THAT would have been a plot hole. ?Had Locke left Celis to her fate in the passageway under the rich man's house in South Figaro, THAT would have been a plot hole. ?Not knowing what someone did in their spare time 10 years ago is NOT a plot hole.[/QUOTE]<span id='postcolor'>
    Agreed. ?Not because I disagree with slayer of god. ?But because what slayer has to say is unbelieveably off the wall.

    Not to mention. ?I believe what is wrong with RPG's today has more to do with gameplay rather than storyline. ?I do not understand why we would argue about storyline. ?Especailly an rpg from 8 years ago to a present one. ?Most of that is based on opinion. ?Besides no matter what people are going to stand up for the games they like. ?If someone likes the new ones they will say that you are "complaining" ?or "bitching" about it like slayer says over and over. ?You will be called a "fanboy" when in actuallity they are more into the series than you are. ?

    However I believe this discussion can continue further once people start getting some sand out of their... well you know what I am talking about.[/QUOTE]<span id='postcolor'>
    If anybody's comments were off the wall, they're yours.

    You seem to think that anybody who likes the new games is some graphics obsessed idiot who cares nothing about gameplay. You'd be wrong. I like gameplay. However, I like GOOD gameplay. To me, the gameplay of the older games is too repetitive and boring.

    You're wondering why we're arguing about storyline? Maybe because we LIKE STORYLINE! By golly, Luke! Somebody likes something different than you do in an RPG!

    Someone I know described you pretty well. You really have nothing to say, but are desperate to say SOMETHING. You've contradicted yourself so many times, it's pathetic. You're an idiot. It's that simple.

    An FF original: I'd rather not argue the issue anymore. You prefer characters with a certain degree of obscurity, while I like my characters without such. Let's just agree to disagree. I'd rather not debate it if idiots like Luke are going to keep on misinterpreting my posts.
    Within the spreading darkness, I pledged a vow to the revolution.
  • LukeTSManagerLukeTSManager Banned Banned Users
    edited December 2003
    </span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td class="QUOTE"You seem to think that anybody who likes the new games is some graphics obsessed idiot who cares nothing about gameplay. You'd be wrong. I like gameplay. However, I like GOOD gameplay. To me, the gameplay of the older games is too repetitive and boring.[/QUOTE]<span id='postcolor'>

    The gameplay of all FF's have not changed much at all. ?Don't you think a change is due?

    </span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td class="QUOTE"You're wondering why we're arguing about storyline? Maybe because we LIKE STORYLINE! By golly, Luke! Somebody likes something different than you do in an RPG![/QUOTE]<span id='postcolor'>

    Yes I agree. ?I hate it that you do not know anything about your characters in FF1 other than that they are the light warriors. ?I want to know the Fighter's Mothers Maiden name or I am going to bitch. ?We are in the same boat.

    </span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td class="QUOTE"Someone I know described you pretty well. You really have nothing to say, but are desperate to say SOMETHING. You've contradicted yourself so many times, it's pathetic. You're an idiot. It's that simple.[/QUOTE]<span id='postcolor'>

    I was disagreeing with you and agreeing with them. ?That is a good reason to post.

    </span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td class="QUOTE"An FF original: I'd rather not argue the issue anymore. You prefer characters with a certain degree of obscurity, while I like my characters without such. Let's just agree to disagree. I'd rather not debate it if idiots like Luke are going to keep on misinterpreting my posts.[/QUOTE]<span id='postcolor'>

    I would have said the same thing. ?He kinda got you on that last reply. ?Sometimes it is better to lay off. ?Especially in your case when you get too deep over your head.



  • RumikoholicRumikoholic Member Full Members
    edited December 2003
    </span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (An FF Original @ Dec. 07 2003,20:54)</td></tr><tr><td class="QUOTE"For example, you wanted to know what Golbez was doing all those years before the game actually took place.[/QUOTE]<span id='postcolor'>
    It's been a long time... ?But, didn't Cecil not know he had a brother..? ?I mean, Golbez had to tell him, right? ?The game seemed a lot like Star Wars in the respect, "Cecil, I am your brother..." tounge.gif

    Anyway, it's been a really long time, but I always just figured that Golbez was from/on the moon. ?No one ever said they were full brothers, after all. It would also explain how he learned all that magic. ?They also said something about his mind being weaker then Cecil's. ?He was just naturally easier to manipulate, which seems odd, considering his enormous magical power, but Cecil's Will was pretty huge...

    And, I thought a few of the characters were done really well. ?Like Rydia (Lydia) for instance. ?She was born and raised in the one, small village and you sort of got to see her grow up. ?Still, there was a lot more I wanted to know about some of them. :\

    Leo was bound to his Lord by honor. ?Even though he knew what he was doing was wrong, he stayed simply because his sense of duty forced him to. ?The only way he could leave his post was through death. ?He was a noble samurai - and probably one of the coolest characters in that game - who died in a very crappy way. -_-



  • LukeTSManagerLukeTSManager Banned Banned Users
    edited December 2003
    </span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (Rumikoholic @ Dec. 09 2003,03:58)</td></tr><tr><td class="QUOTE"Anyway, it's been a really long time, but I always just figured that Golbez was from/on the moon. ?No one ever said they were full brothers, after all. ?It would also explain how he learned all that magic. ?They also said something about his mind being weaker then Cecil's. ?He was just naturally easier to manipulate, which seems odd, considering his enormous magical power, but Cecil's Will was pretty huge...[/QUOTE]<span id='postcolor'>
    Maybe Golbez was an example of what Cecil could have been if he had not turned into a paladin. They said Golbez was a dark knight and they showed him doing hardcore black magic spells at the end. In which was pretty much the opposite of a paladin.

    I like it when games leave you too figure out stuff on your own. Too bad recent games do not do that. They just make sequels using a template. I would too if I knew I can make a buck off of people.
  • GrowlanserGrowlanser Member Full Members
    edited December 2003
    Why are you guys using so many of Square's games for examples? ?Slayer of God says so many of the past RPG's have so many "plot-holes." ?yet you make it sound as if Square was the only RPG developer. Please, somebody enlighten me and discuss a "plot-hole" from a different title/RPG.



  • Lin MayuLin Mayu Member Full Members
    edited December 2003
    Rosewood hit the mail on the head:

    </span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td class="QUOTE""An FF Original" mentioned this in passing, but it's one of my worst gripes, my #2: random encounters during puzzles. I really enjoy a well-designed puzzle in a game, and I suppose keeping track of what the stink you're doing puzzle-wise while you're dealing with monsters every three steps is its own kind of challenge, but I personally would prefer to have either one or the other at any given time, not both![/QUOTE]<span id='postcolor'>

    FFX used this to great BAD effect, as I recall. (Butterfly catching, anyone?) I felt that took the fun out of the fighting *and* the puzzle. Sure, it's a different kind of challenge, but it's one that resembles, say, trying to flip as many burgers as you can while people in line are yelling at you. In games like Brave Fencer Musashi or Legacy of the Wizard, monsters and puzzles mixed better because you weren't constantly flashing back and forth between different screens.

    The other thing that is starting to bother me about RPGs (OK, maybe just Square RPGs)is the increasing sluttinaceousness of the female characters (especially when the scanty clothing doesn't even fit the character's personality ::coughLulucough::), and the decreasing masculinity of the males. Heroes, of either gender, shouldn't double as supermodels.
  • LukeTSManagerLukeTSManager Banned Banned Users
    edited December 2003
    </span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (Growlanser @ Dec. 09 2003,16:32)</td></tr><tr><td class="QUOTE"Why are you guys using so many of Square's games for examples? ?Slayer of God says so many of the past RPG's have so many "plot-holes." ?yet you make it sound as if Square was the only RPG developer. Please, somebody enlighten me and discuss a "plot-hole" from a different title/RPG.[/QUOTE]<span id='postcolor'>
    Well I did mention some rpgs earlier all of them not made by square hoping I would beable to hear some discussion on them.

    I don't think anyone plays anything other than square games. ?This is my guess since all that is discussed is Final Fantasy. However at the same time I can see it being the point of discussion since they are flawed(my opinion). Especially when you look at games like FFVIII-FFX and FFX2.

    I would like to hear something not made by Squaresoft mentioned.



  • Oedo CowboyOedo Cowboy Member Full Members
    edited December 2003
    Woah. Tempers are really flaring, here.

    Anyways.

    1) World Maps. Yeah, I always really liked having an overworld to explore. It was really satisfying to find little hidden locations on the world map. One good example of this is Terranigma. Several locations in the game can only be found by thoroughly exploring the overworld.

    2) High encounter rates. When you're getting into a battle every two steps, enough is enough. I think most people here can relate.

    3) Eh.. do we really gotta have three? I can't think of any more. tounge.gif
  • GrowlanserGrowlanser Member Full Members
    edited December 2003
    </span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (LukeTSManager @ Dec. 09 2003,18:44)</td></tr><tr><td class="QUOTE"I don't think anyone plays anything other than square games. ?This is my guess since all that is discussed is Final Fantasy. ?However at the same time I can see it being the point of discussion since they are flawed(my opinion). ?Especially when you look at games like FFVIII-FFX and FFX2. ?[/QUOTE]<span id='postcolor'>
    You got that right. I get sick of people overlooking RPGs not made by Square or another good/well-known developer. All these Final Fantasy games are made by Square...maybe they like "plot-holes". This just leads me to believe that there weren't as many in the RPGs of the past.
  • Slayer of GodSlayer of God Member Full Members
    edited December 2003
    Perhaps I should have used the words 'loose ends' or 'bad plot devices.' A mistake on my part.

    ALL games have flaws. It's an inevitability. Nothing in the world is perfect. Especially things created by a flawed species. I really dislike people who appear to think otherwise.
    Within the spreading darkness, I pledged a vow to the revolution.
  • An FF OriginalAn FF Original Member Full Members
    edited December 2003
    Well, the reason I use the FF series so much, is because I'm not a big gamer by any stretch of the imagination. In fact, my repitoire of RPGs is very slim. This is due to the fact that I don't feel that the games are worth shelling out the money to play them. I have played quite a few of the SNES RPGs, due to the beauties of emulation, however.

    Anyway, I fail to see how I was digging myself to deep in the arguement, but I do agree that the arguement was going nowhere. Especially since Slayer kept yelling at and insulting anyone who seemed to argue against him with generalizations.

    *sigh* confused.gif

    I wish I hadn't discovered such a hatred for math while attempting to learn programming in high school. I really think it would have been cool to work on high-quality RPGs...
  • Slayer of GodSlayer of God Member Full Members
    edited December 2003
    </span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (An FF Original @ Dec. 10 2003,16:52)</td></tr><tr><td class="QUOTE"Anyway, I fail to see how I was digging myself to deep in the arguement, but I do agree that the arguement was going nowhere. ?Especially since Slayer kept yelling at and insulting anyone who seemed to argue against him with generalizations. ?[/QUOTE]<span id='postcolor'>
    Sorry. One of my pet peeves. Will try to work on that.
    Within the spreading darkness, I pledged a vow to the revolution.
  • DracosDracos Member Full Members
    edited December 2003
    </span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (LukeTSManager @ Dec. 09 2003,18:44)</td></tr><tr><td class="QUOTE"I don't think anyone plays anything other than square games. This is my guess since all that is discussed is Final Fantasy. However at the same time I can see it being the point of discussion since they are flawed(my opinion). Especially when you look at games like FFVIII-FFX and FFX2.

    I would like to hear something not made by Squaresoft mentioned.[/QUOTE]<span id='postcolor'>
    You are on a site that started as the Unofficial Square page and ...commenting on the number of raving Square fans?

    There are many here with extremely deep libraries of games, but this is, first and foremost, a site dedicated to Squaresoft and the Final fantasy series.

    Dracos
  • LukeTSManagerLukeTSManager Banned Banned Users
    edited December 2003
    </span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (Dracos @ Dec. 11 2003,00:17)</td></tr><tr><td class="QUOTE"You are on a site that started as the Unofficial Square page and ...commenting on the number of raving Square fans?

    There are many here with extremely deep libraries of games, but this is, first and foremost, a site dedicated to Squaresoft and the Final fantasy series.

    Dracos[/QUOTE]<span id='postcolor'>
    That is great. ?Maybe this site should be named www.SquareEnixGamer.com

    This kind of reminds me of why I started that topic on the many games RPGamer.com has missed. ?But you need to be part of the staff to remedy that. ?Plus you also have to deal with people saying that certain games are not RPG's(Paws said New Horizons is not an RPG ::shoots myself in the face::). ?It seems as if rpgs are defined by the name of the company that made the video game.

    Anyways. ?Let the FF talk continue.



  • PhatosePhatose Member Full Members
    edited December 2003
    Here's just 1 thing that upsets me about RPGs. Suicidal monsters.

    Now, I can understand if a zombie or mushroom or golem will fight you to the death every time. They haven't exactly got two brain cells to rub together.

    But what about an orc or imp? Or even a wild animal? Now, they may not be the smartest things in the universe, but they aren't sub-animal level dumb. By right, Joe the orc should be concerned heavily about the survival of Joe the orc. However, in your average rpg, Joe the orc behaves like a zombie or golem. Fight to the death, every time. By rights, if Joe the orc walks around the world, and then sees a party of heavily armed adventures, Joe the orc's survival sense should tell him to be someplace else. But no, not in an RPG. In an RPG, Joe immediately charges the party (with suprise, of course, cause you can never see a suicidal random monster coming until it attacks.)

    Even assuming there is some justification for Joe the orc attacking, he shouldn't be fighting to the death. If Joe the orc and Bob the orc attack our heros, and Joe gets to witness Bob's firey death from a single spell, which not only reduces Bob to ashes but reduces Bob's ashes to ashes, the Joe should not respond by charging the party's fighter. Joe should run for the hills as fast as his orcish feet can carry him. Does he ever? In an rpg, the answer is almost always no.



    Perhaps someday, AI in rpgs will advance the way plots and graphics have. As it stands though, rpg opponents still have sub-monkey level intelligence. Probably part of why I don't enjoy typical rpgs anymore.
  • DracosDracos Member Full Members
    edited December 2003
    </span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (LukeTSManager @ Dec. 11 2003,04:09)</td></tr><tr><td class="QUOTE"</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (Dracos @ Dec. 11 2003,00:17)</td></tr><tr><td class="QUOTE"You are on a site that started as the Unofficial Square page and ...commenting on the number of raving Square fans?

    There are many here with extremely deep libraries of games, but this is, first and foremost, a site dedicated to Squaresoft and the Final fantasy series.

    Dracos[/QUOTE]<span id='postcolor'>
    That is great. Maybe this site should be named www.SquareEnixGamer.com

    This kind of reminds me of why I started that topic on the many games RPGamer.com has missed. But you need to be part of the staff to remedy that. Plus you also have to deal with people saying that certain games are not RPG's(Paws said New Horizons is not an RPG ::shoots myself in the face::). It seems as if rpgs are defined by the name of the company that made the video game.

    Anyways. Let the FF talk continue.[/QUOTE]<span id='postcolor'>
    It practically was. If I recall correctly square asked them to change their domain name due to the similarity.

    Anyhow, again, you are generalizing and now moving into rude generalizations. Certainly for many that is the case. It isn't for all of us here. The point is you should not be expecting either everyone to be raving FF fans or everyone to be elaborately deeply immersed in games other than FF. You should not be surprised at a majority of FF loving gamers on a site that began as centric on that and built up from it. Additionally, as you don't own the site and I don't own the site, we don't say what is an RPG and what isn't. We don't tell the people what is to be covered and what isn't. They are footing the bills and they are, last I checked, covering a rather verbose amount of RPGs. Not all, sure, but quite a damned large amount.

    Dracos
  • GrowlanserGrowlanser Member Full Members
    edited December 2003
    </span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (Phatose @ Dec. 11 2003,07:23)</td></tr><tr><td class="QUOTE"Here's just 1 thing that upsets me about RPGs. ?Suicidal monsters.

    Now, I can understand if a zombie or mushroom or golem will fight you to the death every time. ?They haven't exactly got two brain cells to rub together.

    But what about an orc or imp? ?Or even a wild animal? ?Now, they may not be the smartest things in the universe, but they aren't sub-animal level dumb. ?By right, Joe the orc should be concerned heavily about the survival of Joe the orc. ?However, in your average rpg, Joe the orc behaves like a zombie or golem. ?Fight to the death, every time. ?By rights, if Joe the orc walks around the world, and then sees a party of heavily armed adventures, Joe the orc's survival sense should tell him to be someplace else. ?But no, not in an RPG. ?In an RPG, Joe immediately charges the party (with suprise, of course, cause you can never see a suicidal random monster coming until it attacks.)

    Even assuming there is some justification for Joe the orc attacking, he shouldn't be fighting to the death. ?If Joe the orc and Bob the orc attack our heros, and Joe gets to witness Bob's firey death from a single spell, which not only reduces Bob to ashes but reduces Bob's ashes to ashes, the Joe should not respond by charging the party's fighter. ?Joe should run for the hills as fast as his orcish feet can carry him. ?Does he ever? ?In an rpg, the answer is almost always no.



    Perhaps someday, AI in rpgs will advance the way plots and graphics have. ?As it stands though, rpg opponents still have sub-monkey level intelligence. ?Probably part of why I don't enjoy typical rpgs anymore.[/QUOTE]<span id='postcolor'>
    Yea, your right. And I'm sick of fighting dumb monsters.

    For example, in Breath of Fire: DQ(sorry, but this game leaves a space wide open for bashing) you start off so week that you can possibly get beaten by Bats. Come on, Bats? Im sick of being this hero who has all these sword skills and such and you have to go around and slay dumb animals like birds and little bugs and worms and such. Bring on the friggin beasts!

    Back to the Square thing, you guys should all open you library of gaming. Even though a game looks like it sucks badly, I always pick up a copy because I know it might be enjoyable. Im already sick of FFX and the rest, so now Im just looking forward to Star Ocean and Tales of Symphonia.
  • Slayer of GodSlayer of God Member Full Members
    edited December 2003
    In my experience, all RPGs have at least one thing in common: you start off weak and get stronger. As far as I know, that applies to tabletop RPGs as well. You don't take on enemies you can't defeat.

    I don't know why you chose Breath of Fire V to pick on particulary. My guess would be that you wanted an excuse to bash BOFV because you didn't like it, and you took the first oppurtunity you could get. That really isn't neccessary.



    Within the spreading darkness, I pledged a vow to the revolution.
  • GrowlanserGrowlanser Member Full Members
    edited December 2003
    Haha, its just the first RPG that came to my mind, actually.

    Some other games are Dragoncall Z: Legacy of Goku and I think maybe Chrono Cross. I remember fighting a school of fish in one of the games I've played...
  • Slayer of GodSlayer of God Member Full Members
    edited December 2003
    </span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (Growlanser @ Dec. 11 2003,13:35)</td></tr><tr><td class="QUOTE"Haha, its just the first RPG that came to my mind, actually.

    Some other games are Dragoncall Z: Legacy of Goku and I think maybe Chrono Cross. I remember fighting a school of fish in one of the games I've played...[/QUOTE]<span id='postcolor'>
    Oh, okay.

    Speaking of weak monsters, I'm glad that the Eye Goo got some revenge in BOFV. After four games of getting their asses handed to them, they're finally getting some redemption.

    That pleases me to no end for some reason. biggrin.gif
    Within the spreading darkness, I pledged a vow to the revolution.
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