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Star Ocean 3: Til the End of Time - Review

Amish_ChiefAmish_Chief MemberFull Members
edited October 2004 in Latest Updates
Here it is?a look at one of the most delayed console games ever. ?Fortunately, the delays have resulted in North American audiences receiving the Director?s Cut, which fills up the game with even more features than the original version had.

I was recently reminded that the Star Ocean series is intentionally a Star Trek ripoff, but that doesn?t keep me from taking an intentional shot at the plot. ?Nevertheless, it?s a wonderful game despite the pitiful story.

Did you like it as much as I did? ?What do you think? ?Anyways, I?m going to go start synthesizing some elements onto my Veinslay.

You may commence with the flaming.
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Comments

  • EldracEldrac Member Full Members
    edited October 2004
    That seemed like a pretty fair review. I didn't mind the story as much as you, yet I had seen a lot of complaints about it elsewhere aswell. But yes, I loved the combat and I enjoyed the cancel system (you didn't mention that very much). Also, I was able to solo the final boss after 41 hours, so the playtime was a bit off aswell. Good review ^^.
  • dekarguydekarguy New Member Full Members
    edited October 2004
    I like the story, but then again, I have only seen 5 or 6 episodes of Star Trek, but it seems good and pulls me along

    Disc issues on the PS2 are horrible though. I have to borrow my roomie's PS2 to play it because it click, thumps, and bumps on my PS2 and won't load, and it still has issues with stalling occasionally sad.gif

    Fair rating though, at first I disagreed. "Come on, a 4, that is what Phantom Brave and Tales of Symphonia got and all 3 are good and fun." But then I realized RPGamer goes on a 5 point scale, not a 10 point and I felt stupid.

    Edit: You soloed the final boss after 41 hours sad.gif I am 36 into it and I am just about to fight Crossel. How much longer does it go. I only stopped to level once after Kaddan because every fight was taking 50% of my party resources

    Keep up the good work



  • DracosDracos Member Full Members
    edited October 2004
    You know, I'm a fair way in but not too far and certain of four things with it:

    A)Yeah, the plot is horrible and deserving off all negativity. It's blatantly ripping off but that's not the real issue. The real issue is they don't do it very well. Even early on they just don't present things well, leap to stuff and well just have piles of awkwardness. And I'm supposedly before the points where it just gets mindnumbingly offensive with it's plot.

    B) A reasonably large portion of the enjoyment of the battle system seems to be the right roll of the dice with the AI. From the moment I've started playing the AI has brutally slaughtered pretty much every enemy I've come across. Sure they don't act with the perfect efficiency of "Oh this move autokills all these enemies, use it instantly" but they've had no trouble just tearing enemy groups apart 'untrained'. So I've been having a fair deal of fun with the system. For others, I've heard plenty of stories though of them being horrendously bad, painful, and hell, there's a faq on getting the AI to do what you want them to on gamefaqs. That just smacks of wrongness to me, despite my own relatively positive experiences. I don't think the AI system they built is a winner. I think the more favorable to player sanity controls present in Tales of Symphonia were a far superior setup to one that really doesn't give much flexibility for rapidly switching attack patterns. Yes, possibly more 'realistic' but at the same time, I've yet to see the recommendation to go to 10 attack/10 defense, instead hearing that doesn't work well at all...which goes entirely against what my intuition on that matter would tell me. "Get better at attacking" should go as high as possible. "Get better at defending" well I'd want that as high as possible too.

    C)Yeah, the load times. I'm at Kirlsa. Second time. And I've hit four page faults. That's just sad. And not page faults as in the load times are bad between sections but in genuine page faults as I'm just walking around a loaded map and the game stalls out waiting to load from disk complete with message. That's ridiculous to see on a console.

    D)While their art is beautiful and the motion usually fluid...they really needed to have the whole thing move faster usually. They have little delay points all over in scenes where they are showing 'motion' and it's pretty annoying. It got to the point where I actively wanted to scene skip, but the way they keep delivering both plot important elements in these slow scenes along with 'where to go next' means I keep having to watch them just in case. Not all of them are this bad, but too many of them so far have been and the first 3-4 hours is just one long horrible in deserving of skipping in it's entirety section.

    Dracos
  • sniffysniffy Member Full Members
    edited October 2004
    Jeez, I am only on the first disc and about to fight Crossell as well. I can't wait to see this god awful plot twist everybody is talking about. I am a person who thought Phantasy Star III had an excellent story, and that Beyond the Beyond's story was really cool...I doubt any plot twist that comes my way now could make me groan...unless Mirage really is a man after all(as some people speculated before the game's release).

    Anyhow, I think the reviewer hit the nail on the head about having patience. I hated the game upon first playing it, but after a few hours and some levelling, Star Ocean 3 is all I have been playing for weeks now.

    Definitely a must own for RPG fans, if only to see the progression of the series on a next gen system.
  • RebochanRebochan Who needs Rinoa anyway? Full Members
    edited October 2004
    I have yet to hit the "dread evil Plot Twist from Hell", but I've actually liked the plot. ?Then again, I know I'm a lot easier on RPG plotlines than the average gamer. ?I don't even care how similar to Star Trek it all is - sci-fi is a neglected genre in RPGs and I wish more games would explore that concept over the plethora of high-fantasy games we see instead.

    Though the AI sure gets annoying at times - I've more than once watched a character stop attacking and then found they'd somehow been set to "Do Nothing." ?I'm still mastering programming it efficiently through leveling, but it's an interesting challenge.

    My major complaint - why did the localization process change almost every name in the game? ?Since many of them were already written in English in the Japanese game, I can't blame translation errors - it had to be deliberate. ?But then it's just illogical. ?Especially when "Pepitta" signs Fayt's jacket "Souffle" (her Japanese name)...in English.

    Of course, if this is my major complaint, then obviously I'm enjoying this wayyy too much.



    "One original thought is worth a thousand mindless quotings." -- Diogenes
  • ScimaradScimarad Member Full Members
    edited October 2004
    I really hated Star Ocean 2 but so far this one seems a huge improvement. I really can't see why everyone seems to love the battle system; I just don't really feel in control. That said, early days...
  • RicoRico Member Full Members
    edited October 2004
    </span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (Rebochan @ Oct. 08 2004,09:08)</td></tr><tr><td class="QUOTE"Though the AI sure gets annoying at times - I've more than once watched a character stop attacking and then found they'd somehow been set to "Do Nothing." I'm still mastering programming it efficiently through leveling, but it's an interesting challenge.[/QUOTE]<span id='postcolor'>
    This seems to happen when you switch between characters a lot during battle. You'll probably be doing that less and less the farther in you get, if it's any consolation.
    </span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td class="QUOTE"My major complaint - why did the localization process change almost every name in the game? Since many of them were already written in English in the Japanese game, I can't blame translation errors - it had to be deliberate. But then it's just illogical. Especially when "Pepitta" signs Fayt's jacket "Souffle" (her Japanese name)...in English.[/QUOTE]<span id='postcolor'>
    The job of the localization team is, well, to localize. While the Japanese apparently think naming characters after food is the most hillarious thing since getting hit in the crotch by sliced bread, it wouldn't go over so well with an American audience. Peppita matches the character's personality and plays off food (pepper), for those who are 'in' on the Japanese name.

    As far as the transliteration 'changes' go, that's an iffy subject. Personally, I think naming the main character Fate is pretty stupid, if carrying in Square's recent trend ("Yeah, okay, we ran out of ideas. Sin is evil. Sin is bad. Sin."), and while Fayt doesn't look much better, it's at least not bludgeoning me over the head with the large rock of badly-done symbolism. And just imagine the outcry if he came out of the localization process with a name that didn't suck! Really, though, to dwell to much on the subject is silly. It brings back memories of people bitching about Aeris/Aerith despite the fact that both versions have appeared on official Square merchandise, or that Cefca was changed to Kefka despite the fact that the Cefca spelling incorrectly represents the pronunciation of his name (given his Italian last name), and at least Kefka you can't really mess up.
  • KiralynKiralyn Member Full Members
    edited October 2004
    </span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (Eldrac @ Oct. 08 2004,06:29)</td></tr><tr><td class="QUOTE"Also, I was able to solo the final boss after 41 hours, so the playtime was a bit off aswell.[/QUOTE]<span id='postcolor'>
    By "the final boss", I'm assuming you mean the one who ends the main
    story, not the boss(es) in the post-game bonus dungeons?

    Still, 41 hours seems really fast to me. I finished the plot the first time (with
    minimal hints) at around 65 hours. The second time (with hintbook), I did
    it in around 55-60 hours. Did you not spend much time on Inventing and
    the minigames?

    (There's a thread on the IGN forum where someone's complaining that the
    game takes forever. He hit 65 hours and was still tooling around on Elicoor.
    Someone there replied that he had finished in 25 hours, after "wasting alot
    of time on side stuff". So I guess some people can get thru it pretty fast.
    Most of the responses were in the 50-60+ range.....)
  • TheDrunkenGamerTheDrunkenGamer Member Full Members
    edited October 2004
    </span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td class="QUOTE"However, one dramatic improvement over Star Ocean: The Second Story is the voice acting, which isn't painful to listen to anymore. In fact, the character's voices perfectly reflect the mood of the all the PC's, and most of the NPC's as well. Thank you to tri-Ace for fixing this, as it was the main issue with the series' PlayStation effort.[/QUOTE]<span id='postcolor'>

    I'm going to argue this point, but only SLIGHTly.

    I found the actual dialogue mix was sloppy. At times... way too many times for my liking... I found dialogue got stepped on by the music. Not having dialogue boxes would've hurt my experience...

    Yeah, this game plot being a purposeful rip-off of star trek makes sense. I didn't think it was THAT awful. But that lil' plot tiwst you speak of? Yeah. I thought I was gonna crap my pants...
  • Slayer of GodSlayer of God Member Full Members
    edited October 2004
    </span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td class="QUOTE" sci-fi is a neglected genre in RPGs and I wish more games would explore that concept over the plethora of high-fantasy games we see instead.[/QUOTE]<span id='postcolor'>

    Agreed.

    And I must also throw in my WTF?! as it pertains to people hating that certain plot twist. I loved it.
    Within the spreading darkness, I pledged a vow to the revolution.
  • PersonThingPersonThing Member Full Members
    edited October 2004
    </span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td class="QUOTE"sci-fi is a neglected genre in RPGs and I wish more games would explore that concept over the plethora of high-fantasy games we see instead.[/QUOTE]<span id='postcolor'>
    I'm wondering what plot contrivance they'll come up with so they can set the next Star Ocean game in a fantasy-type setting, again. It's time to stop playing around with underdeveloped planets.
  • MeoTwister5MeoTwister5 Member Full Members
    edited October 2004
    </span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (Slayer of God @ Oct. 08 2004,22:59)</td></tr><tr><td class="QUOTE"</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td class="QUOTE" sci-fi is a neglected genre in RPGs and I wish more games would explore that concept over the plethora of high-fantasy games we see instead.[/QUOTE]<span id='postcolor'>

    Agreed.

    And I must also throw in my WTF?! as it pertains to people hating that certain plot twist. I loved it.[/QUOTE]<span id='postcolor'>
    One of the problems of that plot twist is that, for me, it seems to negate or at least raises questions regarding the point of the plots of the previous games....
  • Slayer of GodSlayer of God Member Full Members
    edited October 2004
    </span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (MeoTwister5 @ Oct. 08 2004,16:42)</td></tr><tr><td class="QUOTE"</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (Slayer of God @ Oct. 08 2004,22:59)</td></tr><tr><td class="QUOTE"</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td class="QUOTE" sci-fi is a neglected genre in RPGs and I wish more games would explore that concept over the plethora of high-fantasy games we see instead.[/QUOTE]<span id='postcolor'>

    Agreed.

    And I must also throw in my WTF?! as it pertains to people hating that certain plot twist. I loved it.[/QUOTE]<span id='postcolor'>
    One of the problems of that plot twist is that, for me, it seems to negate or at least raises questions regarding the point of the plots of the previous games....[/QUOTE]<span id='postcolor'>
    That's why I loved it actually. I loved the utter feeling of powerlessness that enveloped me while I watched that scene. It further motivated me to "<span class="spoiler">free the universe at the end of the game.</span>"

    I can see how other people might not feel the same way though.
    Within the spreading darkness, I pledged a vow to the revolution.
  • watcherwatcher Veteran RPGamer Full Members
    edited October 2004
    </span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (Slayer of God @ Oct. 08 2004,17:30)</td></tr><tr><td class="QUOTE"That's why I loved it actually. I loved the utter feeling of powerlessness that enveloped me while I watched that scene. It further motivated me to "<span class="spoiler">free the universe at the end of the game.</span>"

    I can see how other people might not feel the same way though.[/QUOTE]<span id='postcolor'>
    I know i found it entertaining, particularly the life of the people of Arkives and later locales. Only certain 'priveleged' people are 'permitted' to work...dang i wish i lived there ?laugh.gif ?Heck, what RPGamer wouldn't? ?wink.gif

    And did anyone mention the informative Dictionary listing? I know I spent many hours reading about everything. It was very informative history wise and to some of what happened to the characters from SO2 if you pay attention. [Edit]It makes up for quite a bit of the plot too, if you bother to read it. Otherwise you miss out on a lot of interesting details that flesh out the game...seriously, it's many hours of reading if you go through it all. (That alone contains more text than you find in most other games period).

    But hey if you skip as much text and scenes as possible I can see how people can get through the game in 25-30 hours and feel like they missed out on a lot...they did. It's not FFX people. If you go strait through the game you won't find almost everything on your own.



  • Sword_of_SwordsSword_of_Swords Member Full Members
    edited October 2004
    Although when looking at it in slayer of god's way, the twist reminds me of chrono cross basically churning my stomache (in a good way, that game was awsome) </span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Code Sample </td></tr><tr><td id="CODE">It basically negated chrono trigger, well, more like make their efforts hurt the planed more than help[/QUOTE]<span id='postcolor'> though the problem with this plot twist was I basically lost all connection to the world after it. </span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Code Sample </td></tr><tr><td id="CODE">It was all a sick reality tv show? really ruined everything about the game's plot. [/QUOTE]<span id='postcolor'> The game was good but a bit dissapointing
  • deathcube99deathcube99 Member Full Members
    edited October 2004
    </span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (Rebochan @ Oct. 08 2004,09:08 )</td></tr><tr><td class="QUOTE"I don't even care how similar to Star Trek it all is - sci-fi is a neglected genre in RPGs and I wish more games would explore that concept over the plethora of high-fantasy games we see instead.
    [/QUOTE]<span id='postcolor'>
    I'll second that as well. However I do have to say that the Sci-Fi element of Star Ocean was severely lacking. The intro and first hour or so of the game seemed to promise a rich, expansive Sci-Fi universe to be explored over the course of two deliciously long discs,"<span class="spoiler">and then the game did a complete 180 making you spend more then 1/2 the game on a stupid, boring, backwater, fantasy-esque planet, and had a grand total of like 6 sci-fish areas. Biggest let down ever.</span>"

    There were some things that I really liked about Star Ocean 3. In particular I absolutely loved the battles and item creation. If every RPG developer from now until the end of time decides to throw creativity out the window and just rip off those elements from SO3, I would be happy. On the other hand, it had some annoying (and sometimes even painful) problems with the story and AI management system. Dracos sums them up pretty well:

    </span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (Dracos @ Oct. 08 2004,05:10)</td></tr><tr><td class="QUOTE" A)Yeah, the plot is horrible and deserving off all negativity. ?It's blatantly ripping off but that's not the real issue. ?The real issue is they don't do it very well. ?Even early on they just don't present things well, leap to stuff and well just have piles of awkwardness. ?And I'm supposedly before the points where it just gets mindnumbingly offensive with it's plot.

    B) A reasonably large portion of the enjoyment of the battle system seems to be the right roll of the dice with the AI. ?From the moment I've started playing the AI has brutally slaughtered pretty much every enemy I've come across. ?Sure they don't act with the perfect efficiency of "Oh this move autokills all these enemies, use it instantly" but they've had no trouble just tearing enemy groups apart 'untrained'. ?So I've been having a fair deal of fun with the system. ?For others, I've heard plenty of stories though of them being horrendously bad, painful, and hell, there's a faq on getting the AI to do what you want them to on gamefaqs. ?That just smacks of wrongness to me, despite my own relatively positive experiences. ?I don't think the AI system they built is a winner. ?I think the more favorable to player sanity controls present in Tales of Symphonia were a far superior setup to one that really doesn't give much flexibility for rapidly switching attack patterns. ?Yes, possibly more 'realistic' but at the same time, I've yet to see the recommendation to go to 10 attack/10 defense, instead hearing that doesn't work well at all...which goes entirely against what my intuition on that matter would tell me. ?"Get better at attacking" should go as high as possible. ?"Get better at defending" well I'd want that as high as possible too.
    [/QUOTE]<span id='postcolor'>
  • watcherwatcher Veteran RPGamer Full Members
    edited October 2004
    Of course the one thing i miss from SO2 is being able to steal from everyone and your best friend laugh.gif via pickpocket sarcasm.gif ...fun times biggrin.gif
  • YunalescaYunalesca Member Full Members
    edited October 2004
    I loved EVERYTHING about this game... except the story... I think that with Square Enix... Square contributing = Story + CG (yes I love CG) and Enix contributing = Fun Factor = perfect RPG tounge.gif Of course the characters must be bad-asses or sexy tounge.gif
  • DracosDracos Member Full Members
    edited October 2004
    I think with... ignoring the developers and hailing only the publishers....

    you lose quite a bit of information that might be somewhat pertinent.

    Dracos
  • EldracEldrac Member Full Members
    edited October 2004
    </span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (Kiralyn @ Oct. 08 2004,14:12)</td></tr><tr><td class="QUOTE"By "the final boss", I'm assuming you mean the one who ends the main
    story, not the boss(es) in the post-game bonus dungeons?

    Still, 41 hours seems really fast to me. I finished the plot the first time (with
    minimal hints) at around 65 hours. The second time (with hintbook), I did
    it in around 55-60 hours. Did you not spend much time on Inventing and
    the minigames?[/QUOTE]<span id='postcolor'>
    Yeah, I have yet to beat any of the side dungeons yet. Beating the hardest boss at 41 hours would be nearly impossible... I dont know why I beat it so quickly anyways, I wasn't trying to be fast. I took my time with the item creation and did a bonus dungeon, hmm. Oh well.



  • Crimson KingCrimson King Member Full Members
    edited October 2004
    I haven't played SO3 (or as me and my friends call it, "saw-tee-ott" tounge.gif ) yet, but I feel this is one of the only well-rounded reviews out there of it. A lot of reviews say that the game has poor collision detection. Yeah, well, enemies move, and I'm glad to see Paul recognize that. I still, however think, his qualms about the plot are a bit unfair. It wasn't that awful was it? Other than that, however, it was a fair review, not one that glorified the game unnecesarily, but not one that was rooted in the FFX and X-2 school of thought (cough EGM's review, sarcastic cough)
  • watcherwatcher Veteran RPGamer Full Members
    edited October 2004
    </span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (Yunalesca @ Oct. 09 2004,09:27)</td></tr><tr><td class="QUOTE"I loved EVERYTHING about this game... except the story... I think that with Square Enix... Square contributing = Story + CG (yes I love CG) and Enix contributing = Fun Factor = perfect RPG tounge.gif ?Of course the characters must be bad-asses or sexy tounge.gif[/QUOTE]<span id='postcolor'>
    all they did was publish it for Tri-Ace...they had nothing to do with the game content ?mad.gif ?I'm quite repulsed by your comment's naivety. Don't give Squeenix undo credit.



  • YunalescaYunalesca Member Full Members
    edited October 2004
    </span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (watcher @ Oct. 09 2004,22:24)</td></tr><tr><td class="QUOTE"</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (Yunalesca @ Oct. 09 2004,09:27)</td></tr><tr><td class="QUOTE"I loved EVERYTHING about this game... except the story... I think that with Square Enix... Square contributing = Story + CG (yes I love CG) and Enix contributing = Fun Factor = perfect RPG tounge.gif Of course the characters must be bad-asses or sexy tounge.gif[/QUOTE]<span id='postcolor'>
    all they did was publish it for Tri-Ace...they had nothing to do with the game content mad.gif I'm quite repulsed by your comment's naivety. Don't give Squeenix undo credit.[/QUOTE]<span id='postcolor'>
    Oh wow... so I made a freaking mistake in using Enix instead of Tri-Ace... I'm sure you KNEW what I meant!
  • WindWind Member Full Members
    edited October 2004
    I agree with the review.

    4 out of 5 is still a great score and the plot is the major achilles heel of this game. I reached the Arkives last night and I found that little plot revelation to be rather anti climatic and I hear that things do get worse.
  • DracosDracos Member Full Members
    edited October 2004
    </span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (Crimson King @ Oct. 09 2004,19:00)</td></tr><tr><td class="QUOTE"I haven't played SO3 (or as me and my friends call it, "saw-tee-ott" tounge.gif ) yet, but I feel this is one of the only well-rounded reviews out there of it. A lot of reviews say that the game has poor collision detection. Yeah, well, enemies move, and I'm glad to see Paul recognize that. I still, however think, his qualms about the plot are a bit unfair. It wasn't that awful was it? Other than that, however, it was a fair review, not one that glorified the game unnecesarily, but not one that was rooted in the FFX and X-2 school of thought (cough EGM's review, sarcastic cough)[/QUOTE]<span id='postcolor'>
    Technically, it does have poor hit detection.

    But not all the time.

    On larger and flying enemies, even with auto-targetting turned on, I'll watch characters run up, swing, and the hit fail to register since the 'you can't walk here, because an enemy is there' radius is larger than the 'enemy detects hit' radius by a margin larger than your sword. This isn't because enemies are moving. In fact, I see that problem more often on some of the slowest enemies in the game (giant bug boss in the aquaducts for example) then on the extremely fast moving characters (which tend to dodge but every visible hit registers on them).

    Anyhow... What in the world is wrong with you? You start off "I haven't played SO3" yet you comment on the plot saying "It wasn't that awful was it?" Why are you even commenting on something you admit to know nothing about. Paul's opinion, whether good or bad, is at least educated in having played through the entirety of the plot and several of us have chimed in agreeing that the plot and the delivery of the plot is a problem with the game from hour one. Claiming he's unfair in his judgements without playing the game is ridiculous.

    Dracos
  • KarlinnKarlinn Member Full Members
    edited October 2004
    </span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (Dracos @ Oct. 10 2004,05:21)</td></tr><tr><td class="QUOTE"Anyhow... What in the world is wrong with you? You start off "I haven't played SO3" yet you comment on the plot saying "It wasn't that awful was it?" Why are you even commenting on something you admit to know nothing about. Paul's opinion, whether good or bad, is at least educated in having played through the entirety of the plot and several of us have chimed in agreeing that the plot and the delivery of the plot is a problem with the game from hour one. Claiming he's unfair in his judgements without playing the game is ridiculous.

    Dracos[/QUOTE]<span id='postcolor'>
    Amish uses exactly one tiny paragraph to actually explain what makes the plot so bad, and spends it repeating the fact that it's cliched and derivative, something that's not exactly the best-kept secret in the biz. Furthermore, Crimson King asks; he's not making a claim, he's just curious as to whether it is that bad. There's a difference.

    It's a fair question for those of us who haven't played the game.



  • DracosDracos Member Full Members
    edited October 2004
    That alone would be, it was the preface: </span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td class="QUOTE"I still, however think, his qualms about the plot are a bit unfair.[/QUOTE]<span id='postcolor'>

    That caused me to take issue. It wasn't necessarily that he was curious about what was really wrong with it, but that he instantly leaped to it being unfair despite having not played it and sarcastically belted out an insinuation that he was merely being overly judgemental and it wasn't that bad. Especially given the score it was given, it's clear Paul wanted to focus on what was good about it and caused him to enjoy it rather than go into great depth (in the limited space allocated for Reviewing here) on why the plot was poorly conveyed and cheesily delivered.

    Dracos
    "I stick to my mission. Now let's go head into certain danger." "But, isn't your mission something entirely different?" "Yes. Now go special boy, dive into the dragon's den!"
  • KarlinnKarlinn Member Full Members
    edited October 2004
    </span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (Dracos @ Oct. 10 2004,08:32)</td></tr><tr><td class="QUOTE"That alone would be, it was the preface: </span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td class="QUOTE"I still, however think, his qualms about the plot are a bit unfair.[/QUOTE]<span id='postcolor'>

    That caused me to take issue. It wasn't necessarily that he was curious about what was really wrong with it, but that he instantly leaped to it being unfair despite having not played it and sarcastically belted out an insinuation that he was merely being overly judgemental and it wasn't that bad. Especially given the score it was given, it's clear Paul wanted to focus on what was good about it and caused him to enjoy it rather than go into great depth (in the limited space allocated for Reviewing here) on why the plot was poorly conveyed and cheesily delivered.

    Dracos
    "I stick to my mission. Now let's go head into certain danger." "But, isn't your mission something entirely different?" "Yes. Now go special boy, dive into the dragon's den!"[/QUOTE]<span id='postcolor'>
    The words "I think" and "a bit unfair" don't really imply any great leap in judgment. I think he's just saying that's what he thought based on what little info was available. And emphasizing the good while minimizing or briefly touching on the bad, while all well and good for personal opinion, doesn't really fit in with any sort of comprehensive analysis of the game itself; by definition, yes, it is unfair, just not in the way Crimson King suggests.

    This, I think, is doubly true considering the opinion held by many that story is paramount in a RPG, with gameplay ultimately being a component to deliver the story, and a weak plot may be a dealbreaker no matter how good the gameplay.

    As an aside, if anyone should be held to task in this exchange for the phrasing of things, you should first consider whether it's wise to label something ridiculous and ask "what in the world is wrong with them." You're not exactly setting a shining example when you call him out for supposedly jumping hastily (and sarcastically) to a conclusion.
  • Crimson KingCrimson King Member Full Members
    edited October 2004
    </span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (Dracos @ Oct. 10 2004,11:32)</td></tr><tr><td class="QUOTE"That alone would be, it was the preface: </span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td class="QUOTE"I still, however think, his qualms about the plot are a bit unfair.[/QUOTE]<span id='postcolor'>

    That caused me to take issue. ?It wasn't necessarily that he was curious about what was really wrong with it, but that he instantly leaped to it being unfair despite having not played it and sarcastically belted out an insinuation that he was merely being overly judgemental and it wasn't that bad. ?Especially given the score it was given, it's clear Paul wanted to focus on what was good about it and caused him to enjoy it rather than go into great depth (in the limited space allocated for Reviewing here) on why the plot was poorly conveyed and cheesily delivered.

    Dracos
    "I stick to my mission. ?Now let's go head into certain danger." "But, isn't your mission something entirely different?" "Yes. ?Now go special boy, dive into the dragon's den!"[/QUOTE]<span id='postcolor'>
    The reason I said that was that I have been told by friends who played the game that it was intentionally satirical of Star Trek, and gave me examples such as the -ahem- prime directive and the like. Also, while some have mentioned that the plot's generic, they never said it was awful. Yes, I was curious, and yes I felt the review was fair in most aspects (most reviews seemed to be swaying in one direction or the other), but also, I felt that Paul's criticism of the plot was overly negative compared to what most have said.
  • madhtrmadhtr Full Member Full Members
    edited October 2004
    </span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (Crimson King @ Oct. 10 2004,15:22)</td></tr><tr><td class="QUOTE"but also, I felt that Paul's criticism of the plot was overly negative compared to what most have said.[/QUOTE]<span id='postcolor'>
    That's the thing about opinions....... they don't have to agree with what everyone else says. To say that one's opinion is unfair is a bit unfair in itself. How can you expect someone's opinion to be that of everyone elses and still expect it to be their opinion?

    A review is all based on opinion and if you start to get into why their opinion should be the same as everyone elses....... Well, that's what i see as unfair in this thread.

    Paul tells it the way he sees things and not the way other people may be seeing the same thing. He's not here to review a game using someone else's words or someone else's opinion. I think the review is fair while also giving Paul the chance to voice his opinions on certain portions of the game that have alot to do with one's opinion.

    I, for one, have enjoyed the story...... but i don't expect other people to feel the same way as i do. That's the joy of individuality.
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