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Final Fantasy X-2 Review

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Comments

  • TheTykeTheTyke Member Full Members
    edited December 2003
    I agree with Caid, Teresa and some of Vermillion.

    I'm a man and I can understand -desiring- fanservice, and all kinds of provocative things (as are more and more the trend in all walks of life). But desire doesn't make something right, anymore than wanting to kill someone justifies committing the act. And I'm not going to argue myself blue in the face to defend things catering to my dubious urges.

    Things like: "I agree completely. There are things you should take seriously in video games. However, it shouldn't be the way the characters dress." are totally illogical.

    Clothing is a large part of someone's self image, and also other people's images of them. To discount that is to be extremely selective and narrow-thinking.

    We can be very nearly sure it's intentional fan-service, and turns the girls into objects of selfish pleasure - why try to argue the point? I remember one preview of Eva is like "Oh, and more fan-service in the next episode!" It's obvious that it's commonly done, so give it up already.

    How characters dress not damaging? No one thinks of what they like as damaging. How often have I heard a drug-addict say "drugs don't hurt anyone, it's just plain fun" (or any other destructive habit)? I know of many marriages wrecked by pornography, and the goal of fan-service is the same as pornography. Hiding a few tiny areas (to keep it rated "T") doesn't appreciably change the effect of immodesty.

    "The people who take the wrong messages from any medium are idiots."

    I'm pleased you somehow know the "right" message of them. That the director of Eva himself was seriously depressed when he wrote it doesn't seem to have a lot of bearing the message I reckon....

    I suppose cosplayers who copy costumes are all idiots too, for taking the wrong message out of the game costumes?

    No, people always tend to be influenced by what they're surrounded with. Games and movies are a huge part of the surroundings of the entertainment-saturated society. (I'm no exception to that either sad.gif )

    I recently became an uncle. And watching my nephew grow up, I see him trying to imitate everything he sees. People are like this all through life. I'm about as non-conformist as people get, these days, but even I feel the pull to "fit in" sometimes. People will imitate things, and games will influence people.

    So please, use arguments that are more confusing!!! Otherwise it's easy to see how wrong they are biggrin.gif


    Oh, also, since when have feminists been proponents of modesty? I thought feminists believed in doing whatever they pleased, including not listening to people "repressing them" by telling them what was decent to wear.

    At least, that's how it was in the 70s? As Vermillion says, it changes so much we get confused smile.gif


    Now on topic, finally.

    I've played FF I through XI, and FFT to the end. Many of those I played in a week, without hardly stopping to eat, drink, sleep or talk to people.

    But I've had FFX-2 maybe 3 weeks? and I'm not past Chapter 2 yet. I just can't get into it. So that's my opinion of the game so far.

    I concur with the review on many counts, but I too, find the end result a little perplexing.

    .... anyhow, I'm tired. Have a good night... smile.gif
  • watcherwatcher Veteran RPGamer Full Members
    edited December 2003
    </span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (Teresa @ Dec. 12 2003,00:03)</td></tr><tr><td class="QUOTE"And if video games reflect what the market wants, ie 16-25 year old males, aren't games like this saying that the buyers want to see half naked women? ?How can that not be some kind of commentary on society? All mediums--books, video games, TV--hold more sway and power than you think. ?No matter how much you say you shouldn't take things seriously, PEOPLE DO.[/QUOTE]<span id='postcolor'>
    Actually, as far as the point of sex appeal goes, the media have no affect. In actuallity, 16-25 year old males want to see FULLY naked women (I blame hormones myself). Some studies show that teens think about sex around 20 minutes out of every waking hour on average (or something like that). The sex drive existed long before any of the media, the media are simply taking advantage of it to sell their products. Sex sells, and you can't blame anyone but nature. Society has nothing to do with these kinds of things. tounge.gif

    Anyway, I think we've gotten kinda off topic. alien.gif

    Edit: Gah, typo



  • CainEJWCainEJW Member Full Members
    edited December 2003
    I really wish people would stop using the word "fanservice"...how can someone serve the fans something they don't like and still be serving the fans wants?

    Just by a quick literal breakdown of the word...fan denotes someone who likes something, in this case FFX/FF's...and service is the act of delivering goods. Therefore it would be delivering goods to the FF fans...

    If you want fanservice I say we need to look over a DVD at a certain FF7 movie. That thing is pure fanservice.



  • CaidCaid Member Full Members
    edited December 2003
    </span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (CainEJW @ Dec. 12 2003,15:46)</td></tr><tr><td class="QUOTE"I really wish people would stop using the word "fanservice"...how can someone serve the fans something they don't like and still be serving the fans wants?[/QUOTE]<span id='postcolor'>
    What is it you don't understand? The lightly dressed women are for the boys. I presume the androgynous boy characters in later installments are fanservice for the girls.

    Obviously I'm not the only one that understands that the men and women in these games look like they do in order to attract buyers.

    Why can't somebody dress in a imaginative and stylish way without showing lots of skin? Like somebody here suggested a few posts ago, everything we see affect our oppinions. If a game is centred around three girls who all dress in a way I presume we can all agree on is impractical and more revealing than you would find in real life, this sort of suggests that in order to be important, you need to look like this. Saying that they are videogame characteres isn't good enough. Take Japan, there dressing up like your favorite video game character is very popular. I want to see you taking your 12 year old daughter into town wearing what Thief-Riku is wearing in FFX-2.

    Tell me this, if their clothing style is completely unimportant to you, why would you mind if it was different?

    Watcher:
    </span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td class="QUOTE"The sex drive existed long before any of the media, the media are simply taking advantage of it to sell their products. Sex sells, and you can't blame anyone but nature.
    [/QUOTE]<span id='postcolor'>

    No, but you can sure as hell keep it away from products aimed for children. I actually don't mind porn as far as it's kept away from those who have still not formed a mature attitude towards sex.

    PS.
    Thank you Teresa and TheTyke for proving that I'm not the only one with these views.



  • FR_HumanFR_Human New Member Full Members
    edited December 2003
    Video game characters, as well as any other character anywhere in the imagination world, are creations of the mind. So, they're meant to look different from regular day life. How the characters dressed in FFX-2 makes them very unique (and very cool in my opinion). I think the main characters look really hip in their new designs (and I'm a girl by the way). I can't believe how so many people put so much thought into little things like this...it's a video game! It's meant to be played, not analyzed like a literature book.
  • Slayer of GodSlayer of God Member Full Members
    edited December 2003
    </span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (FR_Human @ Dec. 12 2003,09:13)</td></tr><tr><td class="QUOTE"Video game characters, as well as any other character anywhere in the imagination world, are creations of the mind. So, they're meant to look different from regular day life. How the characters dressed in FFX-2 makes them very unique (and very cool in my opinion). I think the main characters look really hip in their new designs (and I'm a girl by the way). ?I can't believe how so many people put so much thought into little things like this...it's a video game! It's meant to be played, not analyzed like a literature book.[/QUOTE]<span id='postcolor'>
    Hear, Hear! My friend, you bottomlined that perfectly.

    I was about to take Tyke's advice seriously, but then I read how he compared costumes to drug addiction and his misinterpretation of feminism. I then realized that I was dealing with an idiot who can't mind his own business.

    This discussion has gotten out of hand. Unless someone's spoken to Tetsuya Nomura's design team and gotten the truth, I don't wanna hear anyone say that the characters were drawn specificly for fanservice puposes.



    Within the spreading darkness, I pledged a vow to the revolution.
  • CaidCaid Member Full Members
    edited December 2003
    </span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td class="QUOTE"I can't believe how so many people put so much thought into little things like this...it's a video game! It's meant to be played, not analyzed like a literature book.[/QUOTE]<span id='postcolor'>

    I'm willing to bet that the game companies put a lot of thought into "little things" like this. I also bet that most people don't put a lot of concious thought into this, but if you had any experience in the way media (music, movies, games, commercials) work, you would know that the important part is what happens subconciously. Did it ever occur to you (as a girl) that the reason that you don't have any problems with these outfits is that you've already accepted the stereotype? Perhaps you should study marketing and learn how the system works.

    </span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td class="QUOTE"Video game characters, as well as any other character anywhere in the imagination world, are creations of the mind. So, they're meant to look different from regular day life.[/QUOTE]<span id='postcolor'>

    Pray tell why the clothes have to be minute in order to be imaginative. Wouldn't there be room for more creativity if there was more of it?



  • VermillionVermillion Member Full Members
    edited December 2003
    [arrrggghhh....the off-topicness is like a black hole!]

    Saying that this is just a videogame is ridiculous. Videogames are as much a part of our lives as books and movies and music, so if we analyze these other mediums as much as we do, why not videogames?

    Basically, no, someone does not need to be dressed in a way that pleases my aesthetic sense to prove their independence. But my views are clearly constructed with input from what they wear, and whether it be accurate or misunderstanding, I still wish that videogame companies would stop following the lead of the anime industry and treat the very clothing of their characters as not another way to inspire hipness, but another way to flesh out the character's personality. I believe that Costume design plays a huge role in movies, and is actually tied into what they want to say about a particular character.

    While I violently support the right of women to express their femininity, I just have to wonder why the videogame industry hasn't expanded the clothing of women much beyond the stereotype of the scantily clad "you-go-girl" independent woman? Surely the industry is limiting itself by glossing over so many other possibilities: the clothes may be cool, but somehow I wonder exactly what sort of character wouldn't wear jazzy clothing, and how much more interesting such a character might turn out.

    Just another confused male,
    Carmine M. Red
    Kairon@aol.com
  • FR_HumanFR_Human New Member Full Members
    edited December 2003
    Why is this clothes topic in FFX-2 such a big deal?? Is it really that horrible that they're dressed that way?

    And I've been here on this site many times, never did participated in reactions/forums until now--just read. And most of the time, there are just a lot complaining about one thing or another or something negative (esp. when anything about FF pops up). I know it's all right to complain every once in a while or say something negative, but sometimes, it just gets so crazy in here--like now. Couldn't we all just keep things cool and talk about what we're reacting to and not bring something else in? Please??
  • VermillionVermillion Member Full Members
    edited December 2003
    But it's sooo fun! LOL.

    Besides, I really do suspect that the industry is limiting itself by holding so closely to some female roles and the way such roles would traditionally dress, or vice versa.
  • CainEJWCainEJW Member Full Members
    edited December 2003
    ...and again we seem to skip the point these women are the heroes of the story all because they have some skin showing.

    Stop turning games into political fodder, people. I can guarentee you the creators of FFX-2 never meant their game to be a voice for feminity. Even then, we're a society that forces women to be a size 2 with a perfect hourglass figure. We're a society, in general, that praises beauty. We're a society that made Victoria's Secret a #1 watched program on Television. We hire secretaries on the basis they're pretty, we force women to put on an affront with makeup, and we demand of them to walk in shoes which elevate and expose them... and you say FFX-2 is degrading women?

    If you want to harm on how women are objectified, how about you start with the real world instead of a video game that was meant strictly as entertainment? It would certainly do more for the world in the long run.

    I could see your point if they were nothing but giggly airheads with bathing suits on the entire game. I could understand if their boobs jiggled wantonly or even if they were treated horribly by someone. However, all you have is they are wearing outfits fit for a tropical locale...you won't be convincing me anytime soon that this game degreades women any more than we, as a society, already do.



  • netgrlxnetgrlx Member Full Members
    edited December 2003
    </span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (Dracos @ Dec. 11 2003,15:31)</td></tr><tr><td class="QUOTE"because it might offend some turd in louisiana[/QUOTE]<span id='postcolor'>
    Gee thanks for lumping us all into one heap. ?confused.gif


    I've throughly enjoyed FF X-2. ?At first I was concerned about the costumes when I saw the initial artwork for the game because I thought they would detract from the game itself. ?Now that I'm actually playing the game I've noticed that the battles move too fast for you to even focus on the way the characters are dressed... you're spending more time worrying about keeping their butts alive. ?

    Like another person pointed out, the girls aren't designed nearly as risque as let's say... Ivy from Soul Calibur or any of the recent Mortal Kombat series' females. ?While they're certainly not MODESTLY dressed, they aren't to the point where you have to wonder what in the world is keeping certain things in place.

    - A female gamer in Louisiana ?alien.gif
  • netgrlxnetgrlx Member Full Members
    edited December 2003
    </span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (CainEJW @ Dec. 12 2003,13:05)</td></tr><tr><td class="QUOTE"...and again we seem to skip the point these women are the heroes of the story all because they have some skin showing.

    Stop turning games into political fodder, people. I can guarentee you the creators of FFX-2 never meant their game to be a voice for feminity. Even then, we're a society that forces women to be a size 2 with a perfect hourglass figure. We're a society, in general, that praises beauty. We're a society that made Victoria's Secret a #1 watched program on Television. We hire secretaries on the basis they're pretty, we force women to put on an affront with makeup, and we demand of them to walk in shoes which elevate and expose them... and you say FFX-2 is degrading women?

    If you want to harm on how women are objectified, how about you start with the real world instead of a video game that was meant strictly as entertainment? It would certainly do more for the world in the long run.

    I could see your point if they were nothing but giggly airheads with bathing suits on the entire game. I could understand if their boobs jiggled wantonly or even if they were treated horribly by someone. However, all you have is they are wearing outfits fit for a tropical locale...you won't be convincing me anytime soon that this game degreades women any more than we, as a society, already do.[/QUOTE]<span id='postcolor'>
    Sorry for the double post, but well said
  • VermillionVermillion Member Full Members
    edited December 2003
    </span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (CainEJW @ Dec. 12 2003,13:05)</td></tr><tr><td class="QUOTE"...and again we seem to skip the point these women are the heroes of the story all because they have some skin showing.

    Stop turning games into political fodder, people. I can guarentee you the creators of FFX-2 never meant their game to be a voice for feminity. Even then, we're a society that forces women to be a size 2 with a perfect hourglass figure. We're a society, in general, that praises beauty. We're a society that made Victoria's Secret a #1 watched program on Television. We hire secretaries on the basis they're pretty, we force women to put on an affront with makeup, and we demand of them to walk in shoes which elevate and expose them... and you say FFX-2 is degrading women?

    If you want to harm on how women are objectified, how about you start with the real world instead of a video game that was meant strictly as entertainment? It would certainly do more for the world in the long run.

    I could see your point if they were nothing but giggly airheads with bathing suits on the entire game. I could understand if their boobs jiggled wantonly or even if they were treated horribly by someone. However, all you have is they are wearing outfits fit for a tropical locale...you won't be convincing me anytime soon that this game degreades women any more than we, as a society, already do.[/QUOTE]<span id='postcolor'>
    That's perfectly fine, except now I've realized that my beef with these characters isn't over objectificication, it's over how by adhering to these mindsets the videogame industry is restricting itself from telling the full scope of stories.

    It's no longer about feminism or whatnot, but the fact that defending the blind perpetuation of certain aspects of character design innately limits the characters that we can be exposed to via videogames. And since I really like videogames, I just wish the medium was being used more flexibly than it currently is, bikini tops or no.

    Carmine M. Red
    Kairon@aol.com
  • RosewoodRosewood Member Full Members
    edited December 2003
    </span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (CainEJW @ Dec. 12 2003,13:05)</td></tr><tr><td class="QUOTE"Even then, we're a society that forces women to be a size 2 with a perfect hourglass figure. <snip> We hire secretaries on the basis they're pretty, we force women to put on an affront with makeup, and we demand of them to walk in shoes which elevate and expose them...[/QUOTE]<span id='postcolor'>
    No one is being forced to do any of these things, and if you're any older than say, a young teen (I'll acknowledge that peer pressure exists), with luck you'll have been taught in a way that recognizes these things not as mandates but as choices. Or you learn on your own. I learned, and have somehow managed to have friends, be in a long-lived relationship, and get a job, all this miraculously despite not wearing makeup, tight clothing, jewelry, or heels. And yes, I'm female, you wags!! tounge.gif

    The idea that media influence us to do anything is, to say the least, not something I agree with. Millions of people watched EVA and came out of it okay. That one person should kill someone else or themselves after having watched it is a sign of their mental illness, not anything bad about EVA itself. The same goes for "hard rock" music, Dungeons and Dragons, GTA, or any media that's been used as a "reason" for violent actions.
  • DracosDracos Member Full Members
    edited December 2003
    *thinks the discussion has just entered a new level of complete fruitlessness that can and should only be found in the locked zone, but that's just him.* Could we at least maybe...get back to FFX-2 if we are going to discuss and leave the extraneous things for their own topics? Making red herring refs to the Eva idiot isn't really productive to a focused conversation on the merits of FFX-2 or even outcroppings of them.

    Dracos
    *prolly steps over the line but...meh*
  • CainEJWCainEJW Member Full Members
    edited December 2003
    Nowhere do I say media forces us to do anything. I said what we do influences the media, and as such if we degrade women in our own society it will translate into multimedia, ie video games.

    I agree with moving back into FFX-2 territory. Debate the clothes all you want, but let's try to at least have FFX-2 mentioned somewhere in our posts. If you wish to debate the merits of Sexuality in Media further, go to the Misc board.



  • Crimson FlameCrimson Flame Member Full Members
    edited December 2003
    I think that the review was right on the dot.
  • RosewoodRosewood Member Full Members
    edited December 2003
    Cain, I wasn't responding to your post, but to another, in the paragraph where I made comments about the idea that media can directly influence our minds/actions. I should've been specific about that, sorry.

    On to FFX-2. Supposedly the dresspheres are "<span class="spoiler">some sort of manifestation of the souls of dead people, and (I think) connected to the Farplane/pyrefly version of the soul we saw in FFX.</span>"

    (Actually the rest of this post contains some mild spoilers, so be warned)

    Very early in the game we see a scene where Yuna dances, and isn't entirely in control of herself while doing so. I believe that the dresspheres are "of" a different person, for each job and for each character, Yuna, Rikku, and Paine. First, because the outfits are different for each of them, and because the way they each move in battle for each job is (mostly) different. "<span class="spoiler">Also, as far as I've played, I haven't been given to believe that Rikku and Paine "become" Lenne when they are in the Songstress job.</span>"

    It is peculiar, unless each Thief that YRP "don" happened to live in the more tropical parts of Spira, that they should all show a lot of skin. And on the flip side of the coin, that the Black Knights and Trainers be much more modestly clothed...does each job have a dress code that's passed down through the ages? (If you are a Thief, you must expose your belly button at all times, or risk losing your Thief's License...)

    Of course I understand that from a design standpoint, it's reasonable to have a similar look for each job so that the player won't lose track.
  • CainEJWCainEJW Member Full Members
    edited December 2003
    Just to make sure...

    "<span class="spoiler">Pretty much put, it is my opinion that it isn't the dressphere itself with the 'soul', but it's the dress that the girl wears.

    It wasn't so much the dressphere that made Yuna have that dress, it was possibly all the circumstances of her life that made Lenne "pick" her, I guess you'd say.

    The summoner lineage, the lost love, the man willing to die for her to live, so on and so forth. I believe had this been Rikku then possibly she would have been the one being taken by Lenne.

    I agree, FFX-2 has an issue resolving this plot hole. If it IS the dressphere, then why is it Rikku/Paine never feel the affects of Lenne? Luck of the draw as in who got the blue one? Seems a bit silly.

    For now, I just believe that the sphere is what carried Lenne's memories...but her spirit, her pyreflies, took Yuna because her love for Tidus was closest to Lenne's love for Shuyin. Just like Baralai's hate for Nooj post-shooting was close to Shuyin's hatred.</span>"
  • SolonSolon Member Full Members
    edited December 2003
    Lucky me, I mastered the game before looking more at this thread these past days.

    I won't be sending in my review though. Not that I expect it to receive this many comments, but considering how far out of line this discussion went at some places, I don't feel like putting my opinion on this site. At least not for this particular game.
    Lasciate ogni speranza, voi ch'entrate.
  • SpideyknightSpideyknight Member Full Members
    edited December 2003
    By the way, incase it's slipped by unnoticed, Jake has changed his review score to 7. It hasn't updated on Points of View(where it still displays 8 by the review), but if you click on the review it says 7 now, instead of 8. Nothing else has changed and the review is still poorly done, but I guess that was Jake's way of acknowledging the complaints brought up here. Not that he could come here and defend his point of view...
  • CainEJWCainEJW Member Full Members
    edited December 2003
    After some discussion, it came to the attention of both Jake and myself(real name, Jeff Walker) that my review was scored to a 7, while FFX-2's review was an 8. However, these scores did not reflect the real review scores, as I gave Persona an 8 while FFX-2 was given a 7. In the update itself, our reviews are listed next to each other.

    It is completely reasonable to assume that when the update was made, the mistake was made of accidently switching the scores on the front. However, the updater may have seen the conflicting 8 on the front with the 7 inside the FFX-2 review and changed it. A very simple, every understandable mistake if this is the case.

    Jake's score was 7 all along.
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