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Points of View - Bah, humbug!

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  • Toasty415Toasty415 New Member Full Members
    edited December 2003
    Hey Cain...you spelled "the" wrong..I'm just joshing man. It happens right?

    Anywho...It seems to me some(lots) of people are forgetting reviews are OPINIONS. And it is my personal opinion that sometimes in a game there are moments, or certain things, a certain song; that just blows someone away. And mabye after this happens the person decides to go write a review right away. While writing this review that special moment or song or etc... sticks out in their mind and they think "Wow, this game had superior music!" (In the case of a spectacular song) And then they give music a 10. Perhaps a remedy for this is to mabye wait a week or two after finishing a game to write a review. Let the game sink in...and so on. And I agree (with whoever said it) that mabye someone saw a bad review and wrote a super one just to spite those that wrote bad ones. I don't agree with this, but I am sure it's not always the case. Then there are always the Squarenix fanboys who love every game that CRAPPY CRAPPY sorry excuse for company releases....sorry about that, I got a little outta control. I forget what I was talking about..But always remember...reviews are opinions just as perfection is. Something that is "perfect" to one person may not be to another...just the same as the word "perfection" might mean something a little different to them then it does to you..or Webster..or Oxford..and so forth. Good night. Merry Christmas. I'm going to go play Tactics Ogre!



  • KarlinnKarlinn Member Full Members
    edited December 2003
    10's *should* be rare, but I don't think they should be impossible. ?If the scale can only go to 9, make 9 the highest number.

    10 doesn't denote perfection to me, but it does denote one or possibly both of the following two traits:

    1) The experience of playing the game overcomes any flaws in the game by great lengths. ?Obviously, this is largely subjective, but it is important - if a game can make you forget about otherwise noticable flaws, it can appear to be perfect for the time you are playing it, and feigned perfection is about as close as a game can get to actual perfection without being

    2) Revolutionary. ?The game is, simply put, a defining moment of change - it does something that simply hasn't been done before, or done well, and that every game from then on can only hope to imitate it until the next revolutionary title. ?Case in point, Unreal: still an FPS in all the important aspects, and yet so much had advanced, changed since the likes of Quake or Duke Nukem, that the end result cannot fairly be called 'more of the same' at all - it broke the traditionals of the genre and changed gaming as we know it.

    I suppose you could simplify both points to that I feel 10 games either 1) are vastly better than the flaws that define their genre, to the extent that any flaws that ARE visible are negligible, or 2) set the standard for everything that comes after it. ?Both are very rare - not once-in-a-lifetime rare, but certainly not every month, maybe not even every year. ?

    It should also be noted that both do not automatically denote 10 games - I feel that Half-Life was 1, while, say, Grand ?Theft Auto III was 2, but neither earns a 10 in my book - but rather the reverse, that 10 games feature one or both of these two traits, or at least games that can debatably be considered 10.



  • Toasty415Toasty415 New Member Full Members
    edited December 2003
    Go Half-Life!! I think id software(makers of Quake) are superb game makers...Their games are usually very pleasing to the eye(at the time of release) and don't require very advance technology to play. Sorry..just thought I'd say that since you brought up Quake. I hear Doom 3 is going to require a super computer to play though...kind of depressing.
  • KarlinnKarlinn Member Full Members
    edited December 2003
    </span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td class="QUOTE"Go Half-Life!! I think id software(makers of Quake) are superb game makers...Their games are usually very pleasing to the eye(at the time of release) and don't require very advance technology to play. Sorry..just thought I'd say that since you brought up Quake. I hear Doom 3 is going to require a super computer to play though...kind of depressing.[/QUOTE]<span id='postcolor'>

    Indeed. ?John Romero's antics aside, Id's responsible for some of the best the genre has to offer. ?And Half-Life did indeed rock - so very close to that coveted 10, in my opinion (it was those blasted Xen levels, I'm so very poor at jumping puzzles in FPS's). ?I'm waiting with bated breath for 2, and Doom 3... well, like a certain 3D Realms actioner whose constant delays are nigh-legendary, I'll believe it when I see it.

    And on a less technical note, it is now 2am here and officially Christmas Day. ?Happy holidays, fight fans smile.gif
  • Cactuar JoeCactuar Joe Member Full Members
    edited December 2003
    </span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (Rico @ Dec. 24 2003,18:53)</td></tr><tr><td class="QUOTE"</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (Cactuar Joe @ Dec. 24 2003,18:35)</td></tr><tr><td class="QUOTE"10 is a perfect score, impossible by the very guidelines set down by the people who run the section. All the angry sarcasm in the world doesn't change that.[/QUOTE]<span id='postcolor'>
    If it 10's were meant to be impossible by the people who run the section, why would the people who run the section accept and post reviews with 10's for individual scores or the overall score?[/QUOTE]<span id='postcolor'>
    A valid point. So either the guidelines are wrong, or the caretakers of the section are?
  • CainEJWCainEJW Member Full Members
    edited December 2003
    </span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (Cactuar Joe @ Dec. 24 2003,20:35)</td></tr><tr><td class="QUOTE"I think a fanboy is anyone who vastly overrates a game. And I was referring to ALL the scores you gave FFX-2, not just the overall. 10 is a perfect score, impossible by the very guidelines set down by the people who run the section. All the angry sarcasm in the world doesn't change that.[/QUOTE]<span id='postcolor'>
    I gave it a 10 because it deserved it with a straight-forward menu system with no flaws. Not to mention scores upon scores of original and diverse sidegames and approaches, great references to not only past FFs but American culture which makes localization as good as you can get(oh and I spotted no grammatic errors in FFX-2), and 5 endings which skyrocket replayability to 3 or more playthroughs more than almost any game in existance now.

    FFX-2 was not vastly overrated, it was rated as I saw fit to my tastes. It is near to the perfect game with one or two minor flaws. Just because your view differs gives you no right to call anyone names.

    Next time take the time to respect those you are addressing and get their names right.
  • Red RavenRed Raven Member Full Members
    edited December 2003
    Congratulations, Otterland. Although I neither like your obscene scoring system nor how I was usurped from being the first reader to Platinum (damn college and WarCraft 3), you still have my begrudged respect nonetheless. If Adamantine or some other category opens up however, the kid gloves are coming off.

    That aside, Cain, will Otterland not be receiving his own update in celebration? I seem to recall having numerous bonuses for making it first to "Gold" some three years ago; does a similar offer not still stand?

    ? -Red Raven
  • CainEJWCainEJW Member Full Members
    edited December 2003
    I'm not reviews though I'm flattered you think I am. You would have to ask ASV or Amish about that one.

    I'm Fan Art. ;)
  • Cactuar JoeCactuar Joe Member Full Members
    edited December 2003
    </span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (CainEJW @ Dec. 25 2003,17:12)</td></tr><tr><td class="QUOTE"</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (Cactuar Joe @ Dec. 24 2003,20:35)</td></tr><tr><td class="QUOTE"I think a fanboy is anyone who vastly overrates a game. And I was referring to ALL the scores you gave FFX-2, not just the overall. 10 is a perfect score, impossible by the very guidelines set down by the people who run the section. All the angry sarcasm in the world doesn't change that.[/QUOTE]<span id='postcolor'>
    I gave it a 10 because it deserved it with a straight-forward menu system with no flaws. Not to mention scores upon scores of original and diverse sidegames and approaches, great references to not only past FFs but American culture which makes localization as good as you can get(oh and I spotted no grammatic errors in FFX-2), and 5 endings which skyrocket replayability to 3 or more playthroughs more than almost any game in existance now.

    FFX-2 was not vastly overrated, it was rated as I saw fit to my tastes. It is near to the perfect game with one or two minor flaws. Just because your view differs gives you no right to call anyone names.

    Next time take the time to respect those you are addressing and get their names right.[/QUOTE]<span id='postcolor'>
    In the end, it comes down to a matter of opinion. Your opinion is that FFX-2 is a nigh-unto perfect game. My opinion is that such high ratings rob reviews of their ability to be a useful guide to potential buyers of the game in question. We can go around like this in circles forever, if you want.

    I apologized for misspelling your name once already.
  • Amish_ChiefAmish_Chief Member Full Members
    edited December 2003
    </span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (Cactuar Joe @ Dec. 25 2003,17:43)</td></tr><tr><td class="QUOTE"A valid point. So either the guidelines are wrong, or the caretakers of the section are?[/QUOTE]<span id='postcolor'>
    10s are nearly impossible, but that doesn't mean they can't be given out. ?Personally, I can't stand giving an overall score of 10 because it screams "fanboy" in any particular aspect, and as pointed out earlier, there are plenty of sites/print media outlets that do just that. ?However, awarding 10s for a particular section of a game can be understandable.

    Two particular cases come to mind as far as graphics are concerned: Final Fantasy VII and Final Fantasy X. ?Both games are in no way deserving of an overall score 10. ?Too many individual flaws in each game (difficulty, localization, voice acting, etc.) prevent it from being scored such. ?Personally, I'd probably rewrite my FFX review given the opportunity. ?However, I would feel no qualms giving each title a 10 in the visuals department.

    This is because those two games were quantum leaps as far as graphics were concerned for their respective systems. ?My point being that 10s are meant to be difficult to give out, but they're not impossible.
  • RicoRico Member Full Members
    edited December 2003
    </span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (Cactuar Joe @ Dec. 26 2003,06:40)</td></tr><tr><td class="QUOTE"My opinion is that such high ratings rob reviews of their ability to be a useful guide to potential buyers of the game in question.[/QUOTE]<span id='postcolor'>
    No offense, but I think you've really missed the point of reviews. As I've said before on these boards, any claim to real objectivity in a review is delusional or a bald-faced lie. To use reviews as a guide to your purchases requires you, really, to read a few reviews on titles which you have strong opinions for either way, and find someone who shares your same basic likes and dislikes.
  • Red RavenRed Raven Member Full Members
    edited December 2003
    Cain, my apologies. You just seem so vocal on these boards and it was late so...

    Anyway, ASV or Amish:

    </span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td class="QUOTE"will Otterland not be receiving his own update in celebration? I seem to recall having numerous bonuses for making it first to "Gold" some three years ago; does a similar offer not still stand?[/QUOTE]<span id='postcolor'>

    As for this riveting debate concerning whether someone should give out 10s like cheap Halloween candy, I will only suggest that a potential RPG buyer might find it difficult knowing how a given reviewer scores a game when confronted with seven categories featuring the double-digit (FFX, although apparently the replay value is 0) or facing down seven equally "perfect" games. This problem becomes particularly vexing when the review text itself typically does not justify said perfect overall score, much less high marks in the individual categories.

    In the end, I suppose coming to an agreement does not matter - the readers themselves will simply gravitate to whichever style of scoring they prefer: liberal or conservative.

    ? -Red Raven
  • Cactuar JoeCactuar Joe Member Full Members
    edited December 2003
    </span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (Rico @ Dec. 26 2003,12:07)</td></tr><tr><td class="QUOTE"No offense, but I think you've really missed the point of reviews. As I've said before on these boards, any claim to real objectivity in a review is delusional or a bald-faced lie. To use reviews as a guide to your purchases requires you, really, to read a few reviews on titles which you have strong opinions for either way, and find someone who shares your same basic likes and dislikes.[/QUOTE]<span id='postcolor'>
    Using reviews as a purchasing guide does indeed require you to hunt down a reviewer with many of the same tastes as you. My opinion is that if you are going to look for a new game via reviews, the best thing to do right off the bat is to find a reviewer you consistantly agree with, and take their opinion. Perhaps your tastes won't always match up, but that's a risk you take when asking anyone for their opinion on anything.

    Any claim to total objectivity is a bald faced lie, I agree. I'm not making the claim that I'm completely objective, or that anyone can be. What I'm saying is that 10 says a game, or aspect thereof, would be perfect for everyone, that everyone would love it regardless. I'm saying that it shows a lack of even the attempt at objectivity.

    Reviews have several different points; not just using them for a purchasing guide, but as a gauge of public reaction, to express an opinion one way or the other, and just simply as a source of enjoyment. What do you consider to be the point of reviews?
  • Amish_ChiefAmish_Chief Member Full Members
    edited December 2003
    </span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (Red Raven @ Dec. 26 2003,22:18)</td></tr><tr><td class="QUOTE"</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td class="QUOTE"will Otterland not be receiving his own update in celebration? I seem to recall having numerous bonuses for making it first to "Gold" some three years ago; does a similar offer not still stand?[/QUOTE]<span id='postcolor'>[/QUOTE]<span id='postcolor'>
    A valid point. ?It turns out we have something in the works. ?Red Raven: Now all we need is for you hit 50 as well, although college is more than a valid excuse. ?RPGamer != undergraduate coursework.
  • CainEJWCainEJW Member Full Members
    edited December 2003
    All I have to say is in the course of my review I gave as little of my personal opinion on FFX-2 as possible. I looked at the game from all sides during playthrough and included the good and the bad, that is as objective as a review can possibly get. I even payed it through twice to make sure I did not miss anything.

    I certainly resent my writing being called "fanboyish" just because I feel the scores fit. That's total and complete ignorance to throw it around because they gave 10s, backed it up with reasons, and gave explainations of those reasons...of course they must be fanboys!

    My review is one of the better reviews out there for this game, or so a few people have told me. I consider that an honor for them to say that about my review, it's just too bad you want good games deceptively rated lower for some false sense of objectivity.



  • SpideySpidey Member Full Members
    edited January 2004
    Took me awhile, but I went over all the posts on this thread. It's just illogical to me in the first place to tell someone that there review is wrong in any way. A review is an opinion, how could the score be wrong? How is it fanboyish to give a game a 10, if you feel the game is a 10? Better to be fanboyish than dishonest and give the game a 9 even though you feel it's a 10 game. If you feel the game deserves a 10, then give it a 10, would you really want people to give a score that they didn't feel was right? Isn't that breaking the whole point of the review in the first place?
  • SolonSolon Member Full Members
    edited January 2004
    </span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (Spidey @ Jan. 02 2004,05:50)</td></tr><tr><td class="QUOTE"Took me awhile, but I went over all the posts on this thread. ?It's just illogical to me in the first place to tell someone that there review is wrong in any way. A review is an opinion, how could the score be wrong? How is it fanboyish to give a game a 10, if you feel the game is a 10? Better to be fanboyish than dishonest and give the game a 9 even though you feel it's a 10 game. If you feel the game deserves a 10, then give it a 10, would you really want people to give a score that they didn't feel was right? Isn't that ?breaking the whole point of the review in the first place?[/QUOTE]<span id='postcolor'>
    I think most of us complains about it because it feels like most 10's are given without enough thought. Sure, there's no denying that these reviewers feel that the games are extremely good, but if they would think about it a bit longer, the score would probably go a bit lower. That's why I never write a review directly after I finish a game in the first place.

    And for that part, reviews aren't supposed to be about nostalgia either, because that won't show anything about the actual game.
    Lasciate ogni speranza, voi ch'entrate.
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