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Chun Soft Announces New GameCube Title

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  • NeuromancerNeuromancer Member Full Members
    edited January 2004
    Wow, you know you're hurting for anything to say when you use your income as a rebuttal! Well, hey, I GUESS it makes sense, because EVERYone knows that the rich people are all the smartest and best cultured and their opinions and ideas are more important than poor people, right? RIGHT???
  • Q. MulativeQ. Mulative Banned Banned Users
    edited January 2004
    Right, I have to remember that the hot-headed PS2 sympathizers are severely lacking in mental capacity, and need child-like amounts of clarification for every post so that they don't make even bigger fools of themselves when they post. ?I wish I could laugh at this, but it's too serious to even be funny. ?Regarding the income comment, I was referring to Atsushi Inaba, of Capcom, not myself. ?If you look carefully at the sig, it was also said by the aforementioned Inaba.

    I don't typically use the word "hardcore" as most people like to. ?When I do use the word, I usually precede it with my definition of it. ?My definition of a the word "hardcore" as it applies to gaming, is a person who prefers to play hard-mode on games. ?Why? ?It's what makes simple, common sense, something that even the mass-market can understand. ?Inaba's definition, a 'cooler'-sounding term for gamer, simply means the people who have the mental capacity needed to appreciate what is in short, a well-developed game.

    As for types of game-users, there's

    the "mass-market," which consists of the overall collective-opinioned "bullets and breasts" loving PS2 and Xbox user base, who may or may not keep a Gamecube on the side,

    the critical-thinking yet loyal "gamers," who started with Nintendo or Sega, and stayed with or went Gamecube for its consistently high quality (and who can type well-worded arguments longer than a single half-baked line of sarcasm),

    and the computer players, who fit into their own set of sub-categories.

    If you didn't care for elitist rich-guys' opinions, then you'd stop buying video games altogether, as they express their opinions through them all of the time.

    Now, fight! Dammit, or do I have to write my own good rebuttals? Come on, now, would you like me to write one for the other side for you? I can do it, you know. Just ask me and I'll help you out.



  • CastomelCastomel Member Full Members
    edited January 2004
    All right, children... Now I know the big bad man has been saying things you don't like to hear, but complaining about it to me won't do any good, because every argument has two sides, and I'm not going to shut one of them up just because you can't scrape together the wherewithal to construct a single coherent sentence or the cognitive power required to wend your way from one statement in a given argument to the next. I'm sorry if you don't like Q. Mulative, but nothing he has said strikes me as more offensive than your puerile rantings, so please stop asking me to delete his posts.
    Whoa! Slow down there, tubby! You're not on the moon yet!
  • VermillionVermillion Member Full Members
    edited January 2004
    </span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (Castomel @ Jan. 07 2004,11:11)</td></tr><tr><td class="QUOTE"I'm sorry if you don't like Q. Mulative, but nothing he has said strikes me as more offensive than your puerile rantings, so please stop asking me to delete his posts.[/QUOTE]<span id='postcolor'>
    Ouch. denied.

    Anyways, There are exceptions to every rule Q. mulative, so let's not automatically condemn anyone who opted for the third parties on the PS2 over Nintendo GC. Myself, I'm a die-hard Nintendo-only fanboy!

    But anyways, I reiterate my point that I want chunsoft to substantiate the artstyle it's apparently chosen for the game. Animal Crossing was able to be surreal because the game in and of itself WAS surreal (have you ever been hit on by that Kappa boat-rowing dude?). The shots of this new project seem to tone down AC's edginess and without any actual reason for the style to be as soft as it appears, I'm growing to doubt that this game will be any good, or whether we'll even see the light of it stateside.

    Carmine M. Red
    Kairon@aol.com
  • KensikoKensiko Member Full Members
    edited January 2004
    </span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td class="QUOTE"Right, I have to remember that the hot-headed PS2 sympathizers are severely lacking in mental capacity, and need child-like amounts of clarification for every post so that they don't make even bigger fools of themselves when they post.[/QUOTE]<span id='postcolor'>

    Geez Q-mulative, now that's a pure fanboy/almost hater remark if I've ever seen one. That's a blatant provocation, if you ask me, and not so much better than those who say Nintendo makes only "kiddy" games in an effort to bring it down. Hell, I have both a PS2 AND a NGC and I think that both sides are pretty much stupid for constantly trying to put their favorite console above the other one for no real apparent reason. What's the point...I mean seriously?

    </span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td class="QUOTE"the "mass-market," which consists of the overall collective-opinioned "bullets and breasts" loving PS2 and Xbox user base, who may or may not keep a Gamecube on the side,
    [/QUOTE]<span id='postcolor'>

    That's your deifinition and, though it has some good points, it's only partially right. You forgot to mention that those poeple that are in the mass-market are those who don't inform themselves on websites and who only buy games because they want something to do: THESE people are into the "bullets and breasts" thing, because they buy a game smiply because it looks cool and/or because they're horny little people who like to see oversized melons jiggle unrealistically (DOA Beach Volleyball here...).

    Hence, obviously, with this definition, it's obvious that the mass-market doesn't really include Nintendo, because you have to admit that many of its games aren't really hyped up with publicity (unlike the .hack series, which is, in my opinion, why it sold at all), therefore the mass-marketers don't really know about them because they don't get the info themselves.

    </span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td class="QUOTE"the critical-thinking yet loyal "gamers," who started with Nintendo or Sega, and stayed with or went Gamecube for its consistently high quality (and who can type well-worded arguments longer than a single half-baked line of sarcasm), [/QUOTE]<span id='postcolor'>

    I don't agree...seriously man, you're just tooting your own horn, thinking you know all there is to know about games. I consider myself a gamer, I started with the NES, but I have a PS2 and I'm proud of it. If you ask me, a gamer is a person who keeps an open mind and judges each game individually without considering the platform is on...

    And I'm sorry, but saying that Nintendo makes the best games isn't true, neither is your constant blasting of 3rd party companies. I admit that the games made by Nintendo are USUALLY top-notch, but you'll have to excuse me when I say that Super Mario Sunshine is a god-awful game, especially since you praised it as a good platformer. I mean, come on: the controls and the camera angles were often lousy and the premise of the game is ridiculous...I mean, swuirting off graffiti? Come on...

    Finally, to name some good 3rd party games on the PS2 (since the GC, admittedly, has few), here goes: the Suikoden series, the FF series (even though it's kinda going downhill, what with a girly looking main char. with Vaan *shiver*), BOF 3-5, the Tales series, Star Ocean 2 (and soon the 3rd one, which looks great...hmmm February), etc.

    That's all for now, but lemme finish with this comment: before you start putting down other people's arguments, stop and read your own, because even though you seem to think you're so smart, you don't really seem to be.

    And on a side-note, Homeland COULD be good, although the childish look is putting me off...I mean, Wind Waker was really good despite the awful yet grows-on-you cutesy look.



  • Neon_tmNeon_tm Member Full Members
    edited January 2004
    </span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td class="QUOTE"I don't agree...seriously man, you're just tooting your own horn, thinking you know all there is to know about games. I consider myself a gamer, I started with the NES, but I have a PS2 and I'm proud of it. If you ask me, a gamer is a person who keeps an open mind and judges each game individually without considering the platform is on...[/QUOTE]<span id='postcolor'>

    Yeah Amen to that, thats what a gamer is, or are you going to tell me, that games like Ico or Panzer Dragoon Saga, Panzer Dragoon Orta,ratchet & clank, etc... are bad.

    </span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td class="QUOTE"Ignore this rule if that person makes more than one thousand times the money that you do[/QUOTE]<span id='postcolor'>

    If this would be true, then we would all have an X-Box at home...

    </span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td class="QUOTE" Inaba's definition, a 'cooler'-sounding term for gamer, simply means the people who have the mental capacity needed to appreciate what is in short, a well-developed game[/QUOTE]<span id='postcolor'>

    Then you don't get in this category, if you can't accept that there are other good games made for other system and software developer...

    </span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td class="QUOTE" I'm not saying that I'm a real gamer because I have a 'cube, just that I am because I know what games are the best ones, and that they're all on Gamecube. ?I mean, it's blatently obvious[/QUOTE]<span id='postcolor'>

    Geez, you know what i guess you are right, ILL GO right now to throw to the garbage my Original Copy of Suikoden 2 and Panzer Dragoon Saga, or my Disgaea Copy, who knows maybe all of them.
  • RicoRico Member Full Members
    edited January 2004
    </span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (Neon_tm @ Jan. 04 2004,09:36)</td></tr><tr><td class="QUOTE"P.S: i still don't want to hear it, so this is all i wanted to really say, you can from now continue without me ?:)[/QUOTE]<span id='postcolor'>
    Riiiight. I suppose now you're going to report my post.?.?.?.
  • Neon_tmNeon_tm Member Full Members
    edited January 2004
    Whatever Rico.

    But since he seemed like he wanted to say some more things, i changed my mind and wrote what i wrote.

    Or is that i can't change my mind??
  • Q. MulativeQ. Mulative Banned Banned Users
    edited January 2004
    </span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (Kensiko @ Jan. 07 2004,14:28)</td></tr><tr><td class="QUOTE"That's your deifinition...

    ... You forgot to mention that those poeple that are in the mass-market are those who don't inform themselves on websites ...

    If you ask me, a gamer is a person who keeps an open mind and judges each game individually without considering the platform is on...

    ...Super Mario Sunshine is a god-awful game ... I mean, come on: the controls and the camera angles were often lousy and the premise of the game is ridiculous...I mean, swuirting [sic] off graffiti? Come on...

    Finally, to name some good 3rd party games on the PS2 (since the GC, admittedly, has few), here goes: the Suikoden series, the FF series (even though it's kinda going downhill, what with a girly looking main char. with Vaan *shiver*), BOF 3-5, the Tales series, Star Ocean 2 (and soon the 3rd one, which looks great...hmmm February), etc.[/QUOTE]<span id='postcolor'>
    You're good, I like you!

    Finally, some real argument happening, and I thought the other posters were going to prove my point for me, by the way that they're going.

    The mass-market takes in also those people that buy into fanboy propaganda, including those who do visit websites, and in fact, the majority of the people on message boards.

    Of course, your definition of a gamer differs from mine, because it's your definition.

    Super Mario Sunshine is a celebration of summer, the bright light of the sun everywhere as people splash around in the water, the romantic feel of a beachside sunset, the feel of the warm breeze in high-altitude. ?The fact that is has Mario 64's control scheme, which has yet to be topped by any other game, simply because other games tend to be more realistic, plus the usual Mario trimmings (coins, 1 ups and other non-mandatory collectibles, a platforming objective per stage), an improved wall-jumping system, a water cannon ability with never-before seen water effects such as those you see when you spray out the paint, Mario64-style mini-stages, and better graphics are just icing on this already sweet cake. ?Not only does it make it a summer-celebration game with a thick Mario game coating, it also makes it a more than worthy sequel to Mario 64. ?Complaining about the graffiti-washing is like complaining about getting a cake at the end of Super Mario 64. ?That's not what you get the game for. ?You get it because it's so much more than that. ?It seems it takes a gamer, my definition, to realize something as simple as that.

    Suikoden, being made by Konami, was a series I ignored, mainly because after Treasure broke off from Konami, Konami was dead to me. ?I do however, know that the latest in the series has a story and characters that were a lot less fully developed than the previous games', substandard graphics, but that's Konami's standard anyway, a clunky battle system, and no incentive to replay.

    Final Fantasy has been going downhill since the fourth. ?That is to say, the fourth game, hardtype, was the apex of the series in terms of plot and characters, challenging and enjoyable battles, and surprises and secrets. ?Now these days, Square/ Square-Enix has degraded to the point where most of their talent lies either in Brownie Brown, a G.B.A. development studio, or G.D.S., a Gamecube exlusive development group that uses Squaresoft names. ?

    Breath of Fire was lacklustre since the beginning. ?It's pretty much Capcom's testing ground for any other R.P.G.s they may attempt. ?It's always landed somewhere below the middle in terms of both popularity and quality amongst R.P.G.s of its generation. ?Certainly nothing a gamer would be interested in.

    The PS2 fans get Tales of non-Phantasia. ?Namco has stated near the beginning of this generation, while they were developing Symphonia, that the Tales of Phantasia series, the games that take place in the worlds that Tales of Phantasia has, that take a long time to develop and are more fine-tuned in terms of gameplay, and rich in plot and world details, will be exclusive to the Nintendo systems, while other Tales games, which take a relatively short time to develop and can be pumped out as fast as possible, will be exclusive to the Sony systems. ?They said it in less words of course, but put D2j and Symphonia side-by-side, and you can see the difference.

    Star Ocean has quite a story behind it. ?In the first game, the action was fast-paced and intense, the story was original, the voices were well-done and the skills were useful. ?Then for the sequel, they threw that all out. ?They implemented a delay after attacking (but only for the playable characters, the monsters can hit you as often as they want), they found the worst voices they could get, and likely put the females through a wringer while they recited their lines, they threw in one, just one plot twist, and made most of the skills a waste of time and points to invest in. ?For the third, they slowed the battle system even more, I mean, are playstation users' brains getting slower, or do they just not want interesting battles any more?

    By what you've said, you've already shown yourself to be mass-market. ?You are more informed than the others, though, and you've shown it with flying colours, but you've still a lot to play to know as much as I do.

    The Gamecube is getting more high-quality R.P.G.s this generation, Harvest Moon, FF:CC, Pokemon Colosseum, Tales of Symphonia, those alone could keep one busy through the entire year, but Baten Kaitos' midi-guitar riffs and Magnus card-centric world should keep gamers intrigued until this Homeland comes out.



  • RicoRico Member Full Members
    edited January 2004
    </span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (Neon_tm @ Jan. 07 2004,20:01)</td></tr><tr><td class="QUOTE"Or is that i can't change my mind??[/QUOTE]<span id='postcolor'>
    No, it's that when you claim the high ground and back out of a discussion, you shouldn't misuse the Report a Post feature to try and get your adversary banned, and then when the staff gets sick of it and calls you on it publically, you shouldn't try and waltz back in like nothing happened.
  • NeuromancerNeuromancer Member Full Members
    edited January 2004
    There's almost no reason to report a post. The admins here are usually active in almost every thread which means that they've obviously read the posts, so if there's ever one that should be deleted, then they're on top of it. Unless it's some kind of blatant racist thing (like "expletive + racial slur + should die", or something like that) that goes under the radar in some back-water thread in a, just let the person have their say. Better than reporting a post is firing back with a truly ingenious retort. Seriously, just step up, be a man (or woman, whatever the case may be) about it and return fire; either that or admit defeat.

    Remember those kids back in, oh, say, 2nd or 3rd grade that would run and tell the teacher about EVERYthing? Remember how much you hated those kids? Yeah.

    As for the topic:

    If you look at the track record, Nintendo has had the best consoles in terms of first party games (though one could argue that Sega claims that title) but in terms of 3rd party games, Sony is really where it's at.

    I think that may have to do with the fact that Sony isn't really all about the first party games; yeah they have them, but they're not the best for their system, nor does Sony try to rule the game development on the PS. The PlayStation is more like an open forum where developers can make their games without being in competition with the producer of the system.

    Like, say you're a developer and you have a game to put out. Who would you rather have as competition: people just like you? Or, would you rather try to go up against the company that makes the platform you're developing on, bearing in mind that this company knows the ins and outs of the hardware and can make it sing like nobody's business? The N64 was a good example of this. NOBODY could make that thing work as well as Nintendo could; from a developer?s point of view it's like they have lost to the first party competition before the game has even started. Yes, I realize that it's not so bad now with the GC, but the power of Nintendo as a first party developer can't be denied.

    So there ya go. Do you want wicked first party stuff? You can NEVER go wrong with Nintendo; they're in the business of making awesome games and they do it well. If you want a more 3rd party friendly environment then look to the PS2... or the X-Box... but I hate that damn thing; "waiter, someone spilled PC on my console!".



  • KensikoKensiko Member Full Members
    edited January 2004
    Lol Q. Mulative, I'm glad you like me. ?wink.gif I just try to make arguments move forward when I participate, not only to try and win, but mostly to learn more.

    Although I'll admit it, I'm not a gamer by your definition, I would indeed be a mass-marketer, but that doesn't mean I'm a fanboy does it? Therefore I would be a gamer by my definition, 'cause I judge a game mostly by what I see about it : I rarely make a judgement until I've played it...the console it's on or who made only serve to provide with some kind of background. However, just because I don't know everything about every game and every company (or at least claim to...no offense) doesn't mean I'm not a gamer, because I simply don't see where in the word "gamer" it implies such a thing. It's like movie buffs: they're simply people who love watching movies and it consists of their primary activity (of course, some of them know much more than the others, but it's like that in everything). Gamers should, in my opinion, be seen in the same light.

    </span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td class="QUOTE"Super Mario Sunshine is a celebration of summer, the bright light of the sun everywhere as people splash around in the water, the romantic feel of a beachside sunset, the feel of the warm breeze in high-altitude. ?The fact that is has Mario 64's control scheme, which has yet to be topped by any other game, simply because other games tend to be more realistic, plus the usual Mario trimmings (coins, 1 ups and other non-mandatory collectibles, a platforming objective per stage), an improved wall-jumping system, a water cannon ability with never-before seen water effects such as those you see when you spray out the paint, Mario64-style mini-stages, and better graphics are just icing on this already sweet cake. ?Not only does it make it a summer-celebration game with a thick Mario game coating, it also makes it a more than worthy sequel to Mario 64. ?Complaining about the graffiti-washing is like complaining about getting a cake at the end of Super Mario 64. ?That's not what you get the game for. ?You get it because it's so much more than that. ?It seems it takes a gamer, my definition, to realize something as simple as that.
    [/QUOTE]<span id='postcolor'>

    That's all nice and dandy, but when I mentioned that game I merely wanted to say that it really, really didn't do it for me when it comes to gameplay. I've got nothing against what the developers were trying to do (if so, I would never have touched Wind Waker simply because I initially hated the design...which grew on me, mind you), but I had bought the game on its release and I was madly disappointed: it ended up being sold. I don't really have a good memory, though, when it comes to exactly what aspects of a game threw me off, so I can't really say more on this.

    </span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td class="QUOTE"Suikoden, being made by Konami, was a series I ignored, mainly because after Treasure broke off from Konami, Konami was dead to me. ?I do however, know that the latest in the series has a story and characters that were a lot less fully developed than the previous games', substandard graphics, but that's Konami's standard anyway, a clunky battle system, and no incentive to replay.
    [/QUOTE]<span id='postcolor'>

    From what I understand, you don't like the Suikoden series because of the third one and because of Treasure breaking off from Konami (wasn't aware of this and don't even know anything about Treasure...didn't know much about developers back then)...have you actually played any of them? Any RPG lover that I've ever talked to (with some exceptions of course) loved the first and second ones. Personnaly, I really don't see where you take the "clunky battle system" from unless you're talking about Suikoden 3, because the battles in the other two were very quick-paced (Auto command, multiple characters attacking at once, Unite attacks, etc.), so I'd like you to explain more on this if you want.

    </span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td class="QUOTE"Breath of Fire was lacklustre since the beginning. ?It's pretty much Capcom's testing ground for any other R.P.G.s they may attempt. ?It's always landed somewhere below the middle in terms of both popularity and quality amongst R.P.G.s of its generation. ?Certainly nothing a gamer would be interested in.
    [/QUOTE]<span id='postcolor'>

    Um, what other noteworthy RPGs did Capcom make really? (sorry if there are, but I don't have a very good memory for this sort of thing either) What exactly do you mean by quality? Because the message I'm getting seems to mostly relate to the graphics...and if you are indeed a gamer, why do you dwell on an aspect of such low importance? Most everyone knows that it's not the graphics that make the game (even though they're darn good to look at), but the story and gameplay. The BOFs always have the same premise of a boy named Ryu who is confused about his origins as a dragon and who ends up with a tough choice to make in the end. Though it may seem repetitive, it isn't really, because the world of each game is always different, with a different story and characters. I find this fun, personally, but that's an opinion thingy, so you can't take that away from me. ?tounge.gif

    For Final Fantasy, no comment, because we're more or less on the same page, heh. As for the Tales and Star Ocean series, I can't really comment either, simply because I don't know as much of that kind of info as you do...would be like strolling into a mine field without a mine detector. But I'd simply like to add that despite what you've said about those series (which is information I believe most people don't know), I know many people who greatly enjoy them, mainly myself...I would just like to ask again, would that make us non-gamers simply because we don't know everything about the series' and developer's histories?

    And among the Gamecube RPGs you mentioned, only Tales of Symphonia interests me (a hell of a lot), while Baten Kaitos only barely piques my curiosity...what I've heard/seen so far simply hasn't gotten my motor running. I'm gonna have to wait and see.

    Well, that's it for now, do your worst Q!! biggrin.gif



  • Q. MulativeQ. Mulative Banned Banned Users
    edited January 2004
    </span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (Kensiko @ Jan. 09 2004,01:48)</td></tr><tr><td class="QUOTE"Lol Q. Mulative, I'm glad you like me. ?wink.gif I just try to make arguments move forward when I participate, not only to try and win, but mostly to learn more...

    ...Although I'll admit it, I'm not a gamer by your definition, I would indeed be a mass-marketer, but that doesn't mean I'm a fanboy does it?

    From what I understand, you don't like the Suikoden series because of the third one and because of Treasure breaking off from Konami (wasn't aware of this and don't even know anything about Treasure...didn't know much about developers back then)...have you actually played any of them? Any RPG lover that I've ever talked to (with some exceptions of course) loved the first and second ones.

    Um, what other noteworthy RPGs did Capcom make really?

    ... [on Graphics,] why do you dwell on an aspect of such low importance? ...[/QUOTE]<span id='postcolor'>
    Well, against my initial prediction, this has turned into a good discussion. ?Off topic, but good.

    If you're going my my definition, anyone who has enough interest in games and related media to join an internet message board and discuss such, is a fanboy, as they have an opinion that they feel needs to be expressed. ?

    A gamer, as opposed to game-buff, would be more of a conoisseur, who's standards are far above those of most peoples'. ?As anyone else would settle for a platformer starring a generic raccoon, or squirrel, or turtle, the gamer waits for the next product from Nintendo, or a close second or third party, and scrutinizes, discusses, and watches over every aspect of development. ?Typically, a gamer knows about a game long before sites like rpgamer.com have it on their pages, and may even have contacts in the industry. ?A game-buff, like a movie buff, plays games, lots of them, but typically doesn't criticize, or notice anything past what the first fanboy yells out. ?Recognize this?

    "You're looking for a BOOK? LAME!"

    Because of this, many people missed out on a game that could have easily made a better Final Fantasy sequel than 7 did, because it had the basic elements of a Final Fantasy game, and a new take on the action R.P.G. style of combat. ?But we'll talk more on that later. ?

    Treasure broke off from Konami when they discovered that Konami's goal is to recycle as much code as possible (by releasing as many remakes and barebones sequels as possible). ?Their first game, Gunstar Heroes on the Genesis, was a remarkable gem that took the contra formula, and changed everything for the faster, more intense, easier to see, and more fun overall. ?It even holds its own today against most sidescrolling shooters, and Contra sequels.

    I'll see if I can find a copy of someone's suikoden that they're willing to give me and I'll try it out on whatever alternative I can find to a station, to give you a better impression sometime.

    For Capcom, what I meant was that Capcom's first Breath of Fire took the most basic R.P.G. system, and added some trinkets to it. ?Now this was pretty much the average thing to do during the SNES days, but the sequel, instead of improving on those trinkets and making traditions out of them, instead added different trinkets! ?These, and the later BoF games always seemed unfinished by the way that the main characters always were Ryu and Nina, but a different Ryu and Nina each time, which seemed like they were either not bothering to think up good names, or trying to put the game in the same league as the Legend of Zelda games, but because Ryu and Nina tended to be less well-developed personality-wise, this move seemed more like laziness on the part of Capcom. ?The characters' abilities seemed little beyond "look what this guy can do, cool, eh?" ?The abilities would then either end up being completely useless, or something that makes the game way too easy if used. ?Tfor example, In BoF 2, you get armour that you can use to protect yourself against Holy, except that no monster ever uses Holy attacks against you. ?Also, in the same game, you can give yourself an infinite supply of Wise Blessings, allowing you to just Gold Dragon anyone to death. ?And even in the later games, some of the translations were the worst cases of bad English you could find! ?(If you're ever going to translate your game for other countries, never go with "Bowne Global Solutions," one of the companies that Capcom uses.)

    As a side note, concerning graphical quality in games, one can tell while playing a game, if the graphics were made first or last, and whether they were high or low priority. ?In a game like E.A.'s The Lord of the Rings:Return of the King, graphics had to be a high-priority, because they wanted to impress the movie fans, and the mass-market wanted them to top the graphics of their previous game in the series. ?So it's the fans that had to suffer when they couldn't see what their character was doing in the middle of an army of enemies, or in heavy fog. ?In a game like Mario, the gameplay is done first, using boxes and spheres, and other basic shapes. ?When the controls and visual layout are perfected, then they make the graphics as good as they can without sacrificing smooth gameplay, which is how Sunshine looks so detailed and smooth at the same time, even though you can see that a lot of basic shapes and textures were used. ?Graphics, important or not, are a key point to consider in the development of a video game, after all, it wouldn't be a good video game without good video.

    (For anyone about to jump and impale themselves on this comment, "good" meaning not only detailed and smooth but aiding the enjoyment factor, fixing potential visual problems,such as showing shadows of things when they're behind walls and floors, highlighting the character if he's obscured, &c.)

    Since nobody else seems to be able to contribute anything intelligent to this conversation, I suggest we switch to P.M.-ing and let the mods close this topic.



  • DracosDracos Member Full Members
    edited January 2004
    As a note, if you are going to condemn Breath of Fire for including inventory that is scantly (if at all) useful...you might as well go through and condemn virtually every rpg in existence. Almost all of them have an item here or there that was intended to have greater usage but didn't. I'm certain you can think of a few hundred examples just off the top of your head of elemental armor that showed up and never really got used, elemental blades that really had no point.

    Breath of Fire has it's problems certainly... but you know, it also had a nice cohesive three game story, long after other companies had abandoned that model. This was naturally quite nice to see as the story built upon itself from game to game.

    The series aren't shining examples of what RPGs should be, certainly, but they were enjoyable for what they were, simple generally well put together games.

    Dracos
  • KensikoKensiko Member Full Members
    edited January 2004
    I agree with Dracos concerning the BOF series...nicely put.

    I had Gunstar Heroes when I had a Genesis (which I sold to buy a PSX...big mistake: I lost all my Phantasy Stars, Shining Forces, etc...) and it's true that it was a really good game, but what else has Treasure made? Because I'm really not familiar with that company...maybe they changed names or something?

    I'd also like to highlight something that I find contradictory: you often praised Capcom in this thread, adding that all their good games are on the Gamecube and that they openly say that they prefer it as opposed to the PS2 which is more mass-market. If this is true, and Capcom is such a good developer, as obsessed about quality as Nintendo, than why do they make such sub-par RPGs as the BoF series as you say? Also, I dare you to say, on the same subject, that Devil May Cry isn't the best game of its kind, followed by Onimusha 1 & 2. Not forgetting Capcom's flagship series, Megaman. And they're all on the PS2 (and PSX concerning Megaman), whereas the Nintendo platforms only get the Megaman network games (which I find bad in pretty much every aspect) and Resident Evil.

    Regarding Konami, what's so bad about making sequel after sequel? Nintendo keeps making game after game with the same characters don't they? Square has over a dozen games in the FF series and it's one of the best-selling series of all time (probably THE best, don't know the real numbers...going on my impression) .

    As for graphics, it's obvious, as you said, that it tells how the developers went about making a game, as well as how much work was put into it. Even if the image quality isn't the best around (as in almost life-like) that doesn't mean a game was just thrown together and then put on the market: attention to detail and to whatever aids the enjoyment factor, as you said, are the most important aspects that help to judge a game graphically.

    </span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td class="QUOTE"If you're going my my definition, anyone who has enough interest in games and related media to join an internet message board and discuss such, is a fanboy, as they have an opinion that they feel needs to be expressed.
    [/QUOTE]<span id='postcolor'>

    Makes a lot of sense, although you must admit there are different levels or kinds of fanboy, ranging from the ultra partial "Sony (or Nintendo or whatever) or die!" type to the type who prefers one over the other without putting it down (and even embracing it as a quality product nonetheless). So a fanboy I am, no big deal, I can live with that. wink.gif

    </span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td class="QUOTE"A gamer, as opposed to game-buff, would be more of a conoisseur, who's standards are far above those of most peoples'. As anyone else would settle for a platformer starring a generic raccoon, or squirrel, or turtle, the gamer waits for the next product from Nintendo, or a close second or third party, and scrutinizes, discusses, and watches over every aspect of development. Typically, a gamer knows about a game long before sites like rpgamer.com have it on their pages, and may even have contacts in the industry. A game-buff, like a movie buff, plays games, lots of them, but typically doesn't criticize, or notice anything past what the first fanboy yells out. Recognize this?

    "You're looking for a BOOK? LAME!"
    [/QUOTE]<span id='postcolor'>

    Therefore gamers would constitute a minority in the gaming world (you seem to like putting yourself apart from the common man/gamer...superiority complex perhaps? tounge.gif ). However, there seems to be a big difference between "gamer" and "game-buff" that would either need a new category (making up stuff is fun!) or a different definition of one or both of the terms. Take myself for example. By your definition of gamer, I wouldn't be one, but I wouldn't consider myself a mere "game-buff" either, seeing as how I always judge and criticize a game, albeit only by what I see in front of me and not necessarily regarding the history and background of a game, as opposed to a gamer. I also really don't care what other people think of games and even if they say one game is "Da bomb!" and another is "Craptacular!", I blow them off and play the game myself and make my own judgement, even if I've known those people for a long time and they've proven to have the same tastes as me. So I would be somewhere between "gamer" and "game-buff" I guess...I'm an in-betweener, I rock! wink.gif (by the way, I didn't really get the book part...do you simply mean someone would refrain from reading a book because someone else thinks it's lame??)

    Oh, and I wouldn't mind continuing via PM if you would explain to me what it is exactly (I've only been on the boards since Jan. 7th...). I'm guessing it's Private Messaging, but by what means? MSN Messenger and the like? eh.gif
  • RicoRico Member Full Members
    edited January 2004
    </span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (Kensiko @ Jan. 09 2004,21:40)</td></tr><tr><td class="QUOTE"but what else has Treasure made? Because I'm really not familiar with that company...maybe they changed names or something?[/QUOTE]<span id='postcolor'>
    Ikaruga, Radiant Silvergun, Wario World, and Mischief Makers are on the top of my head. The issue with name recognition is probably because Treasure has had its titles published by several different companies (Sega, Nintendo, Enix.?.?.?.)

    </span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td class="QUOTE"Oh, and I wouldn't mind continuing via PM if you would explain to me what it is exactly (I've only been on the boards since Jan. 7th...). I'm guessing it's Private Messaging, but by what means? MSN Messenger and the like? ?eh.gif[/QUOTE]<span id='postcolor'>
    There's a link in the top right, below the help graphic, which is titled Your messenger. It functions more or less like an e-mail system, but contained within the message board. You can also send messages via the SEND MSG button at the bottom of a person's post. Unless you've changed the settings, a pop-up box should appear when you receive new messages, or on your first visit after receiving a new message. If not, or you don't want to have that setting enabled, there's an indicator of how many new messages you have next to the Your messenger link.
  • KensikoKensiko Member Full Members
    edited January 2004
    Thanks for the info Rico, I 'preciate it. biggrin.gif

    And regarding the games made by Treasure, it now makes sense that I'd never heard of them, in addition to the "having games published by other companies" thing: I haven't played any of the games and for some, barely even heard of them. Didn't have an N64 or Dreamcast, so that may be why, I think the games you mentioned were on those consoles (right?).

    And regarding the PM'ing, Q.Mulative, if you want to continue in that manner, go right ahead, I'm waitin' for ya.
  • Q. MulativeQ. Mulative Banned Banned Users
    edited January 2004
    </span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (Kensiko @ Jan. 09 2004,22:40)</td></tr><tr><td class="QUOTE"maybe they changed names or something?

    I'd also like to highlight something that I find contradictory: you often praised Capcom in this thread, adding that all their good games are on the Gamecube and that they openly say that they prefer it as opposed to the PS2 which is more mass-market. If this is true, and Capcom is such a good developer, as obsessed about quality as Nintendo, than why do they make such sub-par RPGs as the BoF series as you say? Also, I dare you to say, on the same subject, that Devil May Cry isn't the best game of its kind, followed by Onimusha 1 & 2. Not forgetting Capcom's flagship series, Megaman. And they're all on the PS2 (and PSX concerning Megaman), whereas the Nintendo platforms only get the Megaman network games (which I find bad in pretty much every aspect) and Resident Evil.

    Regarding Konami, what's so bad about making sequel after sequel?

    ...Therefore gamers would constitute a minority in the gaming world ...

    ... continuing via PM if you would explain to me what it is exactly ...[/QUOTE]<span id='postcolor'>
    Capcom is a big company, and they have multiple studios. ?The PS2 division has their own philosophy on gaming, and they follow that to make their games. ?The Breath of Fire series is pretty much their 'pump' series, which they'll release, putting as little actual work into as necessary to keep the fans pleased, while they rake in the funds before the piracy sets in. ?It may be common to have a piece of equipment or two that can be considered the best or worst in a mass-market R.P.G., but even in such a low-class product is it common to have entire elements, such as holy, ignored? ?No holy monsters, but 50 pieces of holy-resistant armour. ?Wonderful. ?If a good idea happens to surface while they're programming, they'll keep it in mind when developing other games, but that's pretty much all that the series is good for. ?The Nintendo divisions of Capcom are actively competing with Nintendo to make high-quality high-class games, and for that titles like Viewtiful Joe and Killer7 really stand out. ?Onimsha and DMC I find to be just Resident Evil, except without the scary. ?I.O.W., without the point. ?Nobody in my club was ever interested in this game, so I can't borrow/get a copy to try out.

    Megaman, the good games are always on the Nintendo series. ?Megaman X, now that's the messed up series the stations get. ?The PS2 teams don't even know what they're doing any more, as in X7 Megaman is now suffering from an overactive neuroticism chip permanently set to depressive-depressive, and cries out "Stop it" like a wimp when he shoots. ?It also got rave reviews for the worse, which I can confirm, because of it's dysfunctional 3d setup in which problems were named amongst:

    -Jittering when trying to hold on to a wall, but too close to a corner, meaning you'll stay shaking on that corner or you'll fall to your death. ?Perfect to let the enemies get a free hit or three.

    -Bad voice acting ("Do? You? Realize? What? Your? Internal? Bickering? Has? Caused?")

    -Minimal translation effort, thanks to cheap translation companies (Yeah, we know English, we took a course or two in school!)

    -Loading screens between MENUS, I mean, this is really bad! ?The file UI, the stage-select UI and the stage-result UI should all be loaded in RAM at the same time, "Now Loading" as you go between them is absolutely ridiculous!

    -fetch quests, where the fast-paced Megaman gameplay has been thrown out the window, and replaced with a slow rescue system that isn't fun at all. Plus, if you don't rescue reps, you don't get upgrades for your characters.

    -"cheap" tricks. ?This might just be the reviewers sucking at the game, but when a rescue rep' dies the moment you see it, and the death is permanent, forcing you to go through 50 load times to try a different rescue strategy, you feel Capcom really wants to punish you for playing their PS2 game.

    Our faith in good Megaman games is better left to the Battle Network series and the team known as Inticreates.

    Regarding Battle Network, it's a game concept that has so much potential that to a gamer it is the epitome of the Megaman series. ?If you look at it in it's most primitive form, it's an idea so simple that it could have been done in the 8-bit era, but it becomes so complex, that often people watching matches between players at my club are confused as to what's happening. ?The concept is this: ?You're put into a grid-style arena where you always face right, your opponent(s) always face(s) left, and you 'shift' around from panel to panel to dodge and shoot. ?Everything always takes up a panel on their space, even if their image isn't there (like the Fishies and Eleball viruses), and ultimately, you want to clear the opponents space of hostile objects (viruses, or your opponent) before you are cleared out. ?This concept is like Tomato soup, in that it only gets better when you add to it, and it's so easy to add features, chips, and customizability to this game that every release is filled to the brim with new stuff, like a completely different game. ?The fact that you get your upgrades and abilities from your enemies only makes it fitting that this be a Megaman game, and so a whole bunch of 'what ifs' take place and you see classic Megaman characters in this new series. ?For being both so simple and so complex at once, this series can only be commended. ?It's popularity however may lead to its degradation, and eventual downfall like the Final Fantasy series.

    As a side note, you might be interested in, I have a development team that's making a take on the cyber-hero deal. ?Battle Network inspires it, but one thing I think Capcom could improve about the series, is that they could try and incorporate more computer terms into the gameplay, such as memory allocation/deallocation, data modes, languages of code, difference in speed during data transfer, &c. so that's what my team is doing. ?You could teach players Computer Science with the potential that this game has! ?So far, though, it's turning out to be more like a "sonic is cyberspace" deal so far, but once we fine tune the formula, we'll burst into the public eye with some teasers and video media.

    For Inticreates, their Megaman Zero game goes at light speed compared to the sluggy, weak Zero in X7. ?Although the translation is still bad (thanks to Bowne Global Solutions), Inticreates has taken everything that made the first three Megaman X games so intense and wondrous, and created a game built for the veterans of those games, without worrying about making the graphics cel-shaded, or forcing a new character on the player. ?

    It's fast: you're always moving, and you'll only have to stop for at most three assassin-like slashes on an enemy. ?

    It's tough: There are instant death-traps just about everywhere, and lots of jumps placed close together.

    Zero and X are stoic, like they were before: One important thing that characters must maintain is consistency. ?When Capcom decides to add a personality to someone who didn't have one before, they're treading into dangerous territory, especially in the case of X, where he was always portrayed as a strong soldier who kept his suffering to himself.

    Of course, you have the option of using certain upgrades to make the game easier for yourself, but the real incentive is to get an S rank in the missions, meaning you use no upgrades, lose no lives, take little to no damage, destroy lots of enemies, and fulfill all mission objectives flawlessly. ?Oh yeah, and finish the mission and defeat a boss (not necessarily in that order) within a certain time. In other words, be Mega Man Zero. ?X is a part of the storyline, but he's once again become the stoic hero that he was during the beginning of the X series. ?For this, M.M. Zero and Zero 2 are the real sequels to Megaman X3.

    Konami making sequel after sequel isn't a bad thing if the sequels don't feel too much like the previous game, because otherwise you might as well just play the previous game and read a faq for the story on the next. ?Konami and E.A. have a nasty habit of recycling as much code as possible ?Konami even more so after Treasure left. ?If you look, Castlevania on N64 and lament of innocence are the exact same game in terms of game mechanics, other than that the former has puzzles (volatile bomb puzzles being the most memorable), and the latter forgoes puzzles for leveling. ?E.A. has made themselves a nasty mess of their code-recycling, as just about every game looks and feels like every other. ?Play Hitman 2, then play Madden 2003 and you'll think they were released on the same disc. ?In fact, the players may even look like the Hitman!

    More Treasure games: Bangai-Oh! (Multi-directional shooter with use bombs = get bombs mechanic, and a counter at the top of the screen that showed how many explosions were going on at once. ?If you're good, you can bring it so high it'll freeze the Dreamcast at 999 for about 2 seconds), Dragon Drive (Commissioned by Bandai to be a richer, more customizable Panzer Dragoon Orta clone).

    P.M. is private message. ?R.P.Gamer has its own private messaging system within the boards. ?This way, we stop threadjacking this forum and prevent more PS2-sympathizers from making fools of themselves trying to keep up.

    (unsubscribed from thread)



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